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Jerseyvinny
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Joined: April 14, 2009
Posts: 6
Location: Berkeley Heights, NJ
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 Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:57 pm Post subject: Freeway Flyer Question |
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| I was told if I use a freeway flyer trans with my pretty much stock 1600 SP in a '65 beetle the lower revs at highway speed would slow down the fan and cause the car to run hotter. Does anyone have any real world experience in this area? |
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vwracerdave
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Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15600
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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The term "Freeway Flyer" was just a BS marketing term used in flashy magazine ads. VW never used it.
For a stock 1600 you need to stay with a stock geared transaxle. Your '65 came with a 4.37 ring and pinion. You could install a stock trans out of a 67-68 with a 4.12 as that is what came stock with a 1600.
I feel it is a mistake to go with taller gearing with anything less then 100HP. Yes taller gearing will cause the fan to turn slower and the engine to run hotter.
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79514
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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It will run hotter due to lower fan speed and will work harder due to not having enough torque.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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downsbs
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2009
Posts: 540
Location: Avondale, AZ
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: Freeway Flyer Question |
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| Jerseyvinny wrote: |
| I was told if I use a freeway flyer trans with my pretty much stock 1600 SP in a '65 beetle the lower revs at highway speed would slow down the fan and cause the car to run hotter. Does anyone have any real world experience in this area? |
it is true, but how much hotter I don't know. I have one and have never had a problem. May just be good luck though.
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tattooed_pariah
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Joined: April 24, 2006
Posts: 2063
Location: El Cajon, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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I'm just spitballing here, but if it really is an issue, could you not just use a different size crank pully to speed up the fan and bring it back to where it needs to be?
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'72 Volksrod |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79514
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| tattooed_pariah wrote: |
| I'm just spitballing here, but if it really is an issue, could you not just use a different size crank pully to speed up the fan and bring it back to where it needs to be? |
You could but the idea of the "Freeway Flyer" is so you can cruise at 70+mph. So at 55-65 it will spin fast enough but at 65-75 it will spin too fast.
The Type 1 engine was designed to spin at 3000-3500rpm.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
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tattooed_pariah
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2006
Posts: 2063
Location: El Cajon, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| tattooed_pariah wrote: |
| I'm just spitballing here, but if it really is an issue, could you not just use a different size crank pully to speed up the fan and bring it back to where it needs to be? |
You could but the idea of the "Freeway Flyer" is so you can cruise at 70+mph. So at 55-65 it will spin fast enough but at 65-75 it will spin too fast.
The Type 1 engine was designed to spin at 3000-3500rpm. |
gotchya... now i'm prepared for half the battle! 
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'72 Volksrod |
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krusher
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Joined: September 24, 2002
Posts: 7662
Location: europe
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| tattooed_pariah wrote: |
| I'm just spitballing here, but if it really is an issue, could you not just use a different size crank pully to speed up the fan and bring it back to where it needs to be? |
You could but the idea of the "Freeway Flyer" is so you can cruise at 70+mph. So at 55-65 it will spin fast enough but at 65-75 it will spin too fast.
The Type 1 engine was designed to spin at 3000-3500rpm. |
You also have longer gears which means you have taken leverage advantage away from the engine, so with a stocker its going to have to work harder.
Gene berg did testing on this and found the longer 4th made the car slower to accelerate, run hotter and get worse mpg.
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AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8699
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:47 am Post subject: |
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I just put some HUGE tires (7.00x15) on the rear of my 60 to see if the rebuilt bus center section (4.12 r&p with .82 4th) would be worth the swap with my 1600cc DP.
here is the comparison between my stock 4.37 trans and the 4.12 bus
pretty close but the bus trans spread between 3rd and 4th is a bit further than Id like.
Engine is a fresh rebuild using all OEM parts.
AS41 German case
KS 85.5 P&C
NOS german cam
NOS german lifters
NOS german rods
KS bearings
New VW Mexico heads
Puma fan shroud
DH oil cooler
1 3/8 bugpack header with turbo tuck muffler
Dual 36 dellortos
German 009
Bosch blue coil, wires, cap, plugs, rotor.
7.7:1 compression
26mm shadek
rotella 15/40 oil
Ive been testing this combo for a month now and logged temps and mpg on my daily 150 mile commute (reason for considering the FF).
Previous log showed the following temps at 60mph running stock 165 tires:
CHT 250-300
Oil temp 190
Oil pressure 35
MPG 26
I am sad about the mpg but I drive with CRAZY winds both coming and going throwing the bug all over the place so I am sure this is affecting the mpg. Previously in SoCal I would get 29 plus mpg on the same setup.
With the larger tires and at 65mph the following temps were noted:
CHT 300-350
Oil temp 200
Oil pressure 30
MPG 27
The increase in speed and mpg was nice but the increased temps and sluggish performance on ANY grade was disappointing. Around town the CHT stayed at 250 and oil temp below 180, but I also rarely shifted into 4th.
I agree with previous postings which say 100hp minimum is required to pull the taller gears with out the increased temps.
When I eventually put the trans in one of the projects it will be behind a 1915 or larger engine AND also run the 356 pulley to increase the fan speed when cruising. |
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Juice C
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Joined: October 27, 2008
Posts: 289
Location: Augusta Ks.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| That is a great comparison. You should try it with a smaller genorator pully and see if the increased fan speed will help with the temps. |
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mharney
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Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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I've yet to see anyone provide conclusive evidence in a sedan that it matters much. The temps might go up a little, but not enough to cry about. Heavier vehicles are certain to suffer more. My 70 bay has a 002 with a 4.56 diff in it, and all the rest is stock. The engine runs warmer than a sedan, but compared to what was in it before, maybe 25 degrees warmer than it was. In a sedan I would expect less delta. Keeping with the stock cooling system makes the most difference of anything. Add a cheapo aftermarket shroud and you will have big cylinder deltas.
If you have a non-doghouse cooling system (early with the cooler in the shroud) and a skinny fan, then it could matter some. Converting to the bigger fan and external doghouse setup would be the ticket. |
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AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8699
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Juice C wrote: |
| That is a great comparison. You should try it with a smaller genorator pully and see if the increased fan speed will help with the temps. |
Not sure how much it would help. If I cruise at 55 or 60 the temps go down which is interesting to me as that means the fan speed is also reduced 
I think it is more related to the wind resistance at speeds above 55. At 55 there starts to be noticeable wind noise and the faster I go the more noise there is. I think the "noise" is really wind resistance. The fact that the bug is stock height I wonder if lowering it would help with the aerodynamics at all?
The lack of power at a hill is the real killer for me. I go from 70 to 50 REAL quick and that sucks if I am not in the slow lane. I am thinking of putting my 1699cc in the car to see how the 74mm crank helps with pulling the tall gear. That engine has more torque than the stock 1600 so Ill see how it feels on the hills.
One change I forgot to mention is a header swap a few days ago. I was previously running a 1 1/2 merged header which felt more powerful through out the rpm range but with the 1 3/8 header the low rpm torque was more noticeable and I could tell the engine did not have to rev so high to pull the gear. It does have noticeably less high rpm power which should be expected with more restrictive primaries. Since I have only put 200 miles on the engine since the swap I cannot tell the difference in mileage but the temps remained higher.
| mharney wrote: |
| I've yet to see anyone provide conclusive evidence in a sedan that it matters much. The temps might go up a little, but not enough to cry about. Heavier vehicles are certain to suffer more. |
What is funny is that a bus has a lower coefficient of drag compared to a bug. Im sure the weight of the vehicle plays more of a part to the increased temps than the aerodynamics do. To most a 50 degree plus increase in head temps in "nothing to cry about" but when the ambient temps are above 100 degrees (which for me they will be) 50 degrees will help a lot.
The tests above have been at 80 degrees so with higher ambient temps Im sure they will rise even more especially on hills. If I ever plan to have passengers or cargo they will be even higher. |
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krusher
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Joined: September 24, 2002
Posts: 7662
Location: europe
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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I would rather the head temps were in the 300-350 range , 250-300 to me is overly cold.
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AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8699
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| krusher wrote: |
| I would rather the head temps were in the 300-350 range , 250-300 to me is overly cold. |
Is there decreased combustion efficiency in a colder head? I am no metallurgist but I would guess a wider range of temperature differentials would fatigue the casting quicker than a narrower range would.
I would rather have a colder head with efficient combustion which would allow more advance than a hot head that had to be retarded all the time to keep the seats and guides from falling out. |
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Bruce
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Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17589
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| derluftwagen wrote: |
| ....What is funny is that a bus has a lower coefficient of drag compared to a bug...... |
While a Bus has a better aerodynamic shape, it has much more frontal area. IOW, it has more total drag while being pushed through the air.
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krusher
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Joined: September 24, 2002
Posts: 7662
Location: europe
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| derluftwagen wrote: |
| krusher wrote: |
| I would rather the head temps were in the 300-350 range , 250-300 to me is overly cold. |
Is there decreased combustion efficiency in a colder head? I am no metallurgist but I would guess a wider range of temperature differentials would fatigue the casting quicker than a narrower range would.
I would rather have a colder head with efficient combustion which would allow more advance than a hot head that had to be retarded all the time to keep the seats and guides from falling out. |
I read somewhere jake raby saying I think he had found in testing 325 to give best efficiency.
My bus engine runs around 300-350, the only time I got lower was when I tired a different distributor, the engine was less powerful but also got lower in head temps, I equated this to a poor burn.
400 is hot, I have no worried with 300-350.
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AlteWagen
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Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8699
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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More data to post on the FF in a beetle.
I installed the smaller 356 pulley to see how much more cooling it offers.
Average head temps dropped 30 degrees while oil temps dropped 40!!! I have to drive at 75 mph for longer than 30 minutes to get the oil up to operating temperature.
At 55mph head temps dropped 50 degrees
At 65mph head temps dropped 30 degrees
At 70mph head temps dropped 15 degrees
Oil temp drop was stedy at 40 degrees at speeds below 70mph, at speeds above 70 the temp slowly rose but never passed 185 degrees. At speeds below 70 the oil temp was only around 130 degrees. I dont like oil temps lower than 180 as the moisture does not evaporated from the oil and the dreaded "milk shake" foam in the oil filler will soon develop. In SoCal I never had this problem but now up here I feel this will be a problem. |
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spectre6000
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Joined: April 19, 2009
Posts: 2014
Location: Broomfield, CO
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:58 am Post subject: |
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I have a freeway flyer-geared big nut tranny with RGBs and stock 14" wheels in my '62 Panel running a doghouse 1600 with dual carbs and a slightly more open exhaust. I run CHTs about 350 (external temperature around 70) on the highway cruising at 70 mph (after counting for known speedometer variance).
The 72-on Karmann Ghias had the gearing that is commonly touted as "Freeway Flyer". It seems VW thought it wasn't a bad idea to mate a freeway flyer with a stock 1600. Granted, a Ghia is a bit more slippery, but the difference between freeway flyer and stock trans is not all that significant if you have the power to push it (i.e. I don't know I would try it with a stock 40 or 36).
This is one of those VW debates that will never die. Thousands of people run Freeway Flyers without a single issue. Go for it.
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-'58 German Market Deluxe Beetle (in progress)
-'84 M1009 CUCV
-'81 K10
"Buy the best, cry once." -Gene Berg
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available, and then buys another one hoping for a better result, and then spends the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
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mharney
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Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| Most peoples' testing is lacking majorly in controls too. It just makes sense that lower RPMs at the same load is going to yield less cooling air. How much? Not enough, most of the time.. we're talking a couple hundred RPM usually. |
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AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8699
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:03 am Post subject: |
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I picked up 9mph after the change. Its nice to be able to drive with traffic and not be screaming at 4000 rpm. True my data is not out of a lab but straight from the road on my daily 150 mile commute from sac to san fran. Some flat, some hills, cold and heat all in the same day.
I am not trying to convice anyone to get a FF just reporting what Ive found on my own car. Most people just repeat what they have heard somewhere while I actually run one and am reporting the differences.
I too would not run one on a 1200 unless it had the WW okrasa kit and was in a ghia. |
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