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1957 axles + 1968 brakes = oil leak
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HenrikL
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:28 pm    Post subject: 1957 axles + 1968 brakes = oil leak Reply with quote

I'm running 1968 brakes, 65-66 Type 1 bearing retainers on my 1957 oval's rear axles. The gearbox oils seems to be running more or less straight through. Pictures will be up later.

Is anyone running the large four-bolt brakes on oval axles? It it working?
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Undis
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a similar problem. I wanted to try and fit later bearing retainers (with the oil discharge hole) on my axles to do away with the oil slinger system... no way! The later retainer is not deep enough for the bearing to fit inside, this leaves a gap. Maybe it is possible to machine the retainer, but I didn't want to mess with this.
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HenrikL
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Undis wrote:
I had a similar problem. I wanted to try and fit later bearing retainers (with the oil discharge hole) on my axles to do away with the oil slinger system... no way! The later retainer is not deep enough for the bearing to fit inside, this leaves a gap. Maybe it is possible to machine the retainer, but I didn't want to mess with this.

Then I guess you used the bearing retainer that goes with the long spline axles, 1968 and later? The 1965-66 bearing retainer that I use has the oil discharge hole and grips the bearing correctly.

How did you solve the problem? Do you run four-bolt brakes with oval bearing retainers?
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Undis
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure about the retainer, it was just something I had - could have been a '70ies one... the rear brakes are a mix of parts - done by the previous owners. The backing plates and other bits are from '57-'64 and the retainers are ones to use with the slinger ring. This was just a curiousity to see if could be done easily, because I had bought some new brake drums without the hole for the slinger tube, so I thought I may be able to "upgrade" to newer parts at the same time.

The final solution was to just drill the damn hole in the new drums for the slinger tube and re-use all the old parts.

In your case it seems it is a different issue, if you say it all fits together nicely with the '65-'66 retainers.... perhaps you can use more gaskets just in case there still is a problem with sealing?
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HenrikL
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is how it looks. It is not leaking through the drain hole, but between the axle tube end and the backing plate.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two possibilities come to mind.

1. Bearing cover is too shallow for the bearing which prevents the assembly from compressing. There are a few different designs for the bearing assembly which means mixing axle tubes with bearing covers is not a good idea. Also, the thickness of the backing plate changed (becoming thicker with newer models), which may or may not cause a problem, but it does change the overall dimension of the tube-backing plate-bearing cover assembly.

2. Bad or missing large O-ring and/or paper gasket.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe some information in this post will help http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=208373&highlight=bearing+retainer
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HenrikL
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nlorntson wrote:
Maybe some information in this post will help http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=208373&highlight=bearing+retainer

Hmm, there seems to be two different versions of the axle tubes and bearing retainers.

Some literature studies..... First a 50s edition parts manual updated until early 60s.

Two axle tube end castings are listed:
111 501 163 to chassis number 1 673 410
111 501 163C from chassis number 1 673 411

Two bearing retainers are also listed:
111 501 311 to chassis number 1 673 410
111 501 311B from chassis number 1 673 411

Chassis number 1 673 411 is early in the 1958 model year when the brakes got larger.


I've also got another parts manual. This is a 70s edition - possibly the last before they went to micro fiche.

This manual one only lists one axle tube end casting for all cars up to 116 1021 300 (last car of 1966 model year). The part number is 111 501 163C and there is a note that if this part is used on cars with chassis number up to 1 673 410 then bearing cover 111 501 311B must also be used.

The manual lists three bearing retainers:
111 501 311 chassis - 1 673 410
111 501 311B chassis 1 673 411 - 6 502 399 (early 1958 to last car 1964)
311 501 311 chassis 115 000 001 - 116 1021 300 (1965 and 1966)


Seems like I have mis-matched axle tubes and bearing covers........ I will try to get my hands on some later parts to take some measurements.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a quote from the Bentley Workshop Manual, 1952-57. The context is removing and installing rear axle tube, specifically the removal and installation of the bearing housing on the tube. It doesn't discuss any change in the machined seat for the bearing, but it is close to the chassis number you mentioned in your parts books so perhaps it is related.

Note:

During the period from the end of March to the beginning of October 1957, from Chassis No. 1673351 rear axle tubes were fitted in a number of cases which were not ground at the bearing flange seat but were in an unmachined condition.

If on occasion of repairs an unmachined axle tube is to be replaced by a ground tube, a new bearing flange has to be used in conjunction with the ground tube.

The two rear axle tubes can be easily identified. Only ground, tubes, spare part number 111 501 105, are supplied as spares.

Due to a modification in the design of the bearing flange, ring gauge VW 433a has to be used, in addition to the pressure plate VW 433, when pressing the bearing flange on the axle tube. Only thus can proper seat be ensured between the flange bore for the dowel pin and the flat section of the rear axle tube.

With the rear axle installed, mandrel VW 204a can be used on the bearing flange.
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HenrikL
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, now I have measured both my 1957 and a 1959. The axle end castings and the bearing retainers are completely different. Check out the pictures:

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HenrikL
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you check out the two pictures below from the workshop manual it is obvious that the large o-ring sits in different places in the early and late cars.

My mixture of parts gives no compression of the large o-ring and that why it is leaking.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PaintSum
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is excellent info Henrik, thank you

I have a 57 with later backing plates.. leaks is the exact same spot

my question is how did you fix this? haha.. I do not want to change out my axle tube everything is all together!

any ideas?

I am thinking that if I machine down the later backing plate a little it will seal like original 57

got to be something easier
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a thought that I'm sure you've already considered, but I would recommend getting the older style parts to match the tubes. I realize there are a lot of pieces, backing plates, wheel cylinders, springs, bearing caps, shoes, but once you have it all, it's a bolt on affair and you are done with it. Smaller brakes in the back are not going to make a lot of difference for average driving conditions.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you're using the splitcase transmission that was stock in your beetle? If you want to use the later style brakes you need to use the bearing cover that is for the splitcase. You'll notice when you go to install the backing plates that the splitcase bearing retainers are square all the way around and won't fit the backing plate......simply machine (or grind) to make them the same shape as the 58-67 style. You can't mix and match on the covers (they will leak), but you can make the later brakes fit. You'll also need some 69-71 e-brake cables to make it complete. That's a 113609721M. You'll need to use 58-67 backing plates if you want the shoes to line up with the 58-67 5 lug drums. This combo works great in my 57, never leaks a drop.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea
See here is the deal, the previous owner has already done this. I have 57 axle tubes 57 end caps ground out to fit and 58-67 backing plates. I have put this together 2 times and leak every time. First time with 2 paper gaskets one behind plate and one behind bearing cap. Second time with just paper gasket behind cap. I then did research here and said use no gasket but use the gasket sealant? With the backing plate being thicker it would make sense. The paper gaskets would make the whole situation worse
What did you use motörhead? Seems like it will be wise to use no paper gasket. This shit is a big pain in the arse
Thanks
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HenrikL
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaintSum wrote:
I have a 57 with later backing plates.. leaks is the exact same spot

my question is how did you fix this? haha.. I do not want to change out my axle tube everything is all together!

any ideas?

I solved this problem by using the 1957 bearing covers. This was bolt-on to the 1968- backing plates, but if oil is leaking it will end up inside the drum, since there is no proper draining.

The best solution would be to use 1958 axle tubes with the 65-66 bearing covers, but that have to wait until I find those tubes.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more factoid is that the later backing plates I've measured were slightly thicker than the early ones. Perhaps in some cases it could be enough to keep the large o-ring from compressing adequately. Maybe you could search out a larger gauge o-ring.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea I did think of that, good point.. trip to Westlake is in order

over the weekend I did find that my backing plates were out of true.. Someone over time had beaten them to death and pryed on them.. I spent few hrs trueing them up. I am going to try this again..

Did you use paper gaskets?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One paper gasket, one O ring, no sealant. And yes, the backing plate has to be flat and true. What brand seal kit are you using? I use the ones made by Sabo with no problems.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh just one O ring? I would assume just the big one..

I am guilty of using a cheap kit for sure. I figured these would not matter if you got the cheap ones. evidently WRONG! haha

is this the kit you run man? the middle one.. a big jump from the one from CIP that is like $2

http://www.autopartsdeal.com/catalog/?N=0&uts=...Wheel+Seal
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