Advice Needed! Narrowed Beam To Offset Track Width On Oval?

[beatle1]

Hi everyone

I have a 55 Oval ragtop running on stock smoothies, drums and lowered on spindles. Its kingpins are kinda screwed so it feels a bit rollicky over humps especially but otherwise, it drives ride, no bumpiness and is almost like stock. I have another 63, owned it for 5 years and realized that it was converted to ball joints much earlier taking the Wide 5 drums. I then put on the Flat 4 Fuchs (4.5 /5.5)with front disc brakes and aesthetically its beautiful. I think its measures about 1.5 to 2 inches from outside fender without the use of narrowed beams (145 fronts) . 63 bug is lowered using weld on adjusters from http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D4032 (any difference in ride with using different kind of adjusters like CSP or Avis) The ride on my 63 is acceptable but a little on the bumpy side and I would rate it maybe 5 to the ovals 8 in terms of comfort. For the Oval, Im aiming for a Resto Cal look with 145s front and 205s rear, front brake discs is a must, and I would like to maintain a certain standard of drivability as it’s also going to be a half weekly driver in a city state- fetching kids, commuting etc ( the 63 is my everyday ride currently in a city plagued with humps , traffic lights , malls and people everywhere and it’s a great experience!). A moderate tuck look is a must (hence 4.5 / 6 inch) Fuchs with their offset. I want it to be a nice looker but realistically it’s never going to be a showcar cos im in South East Asia and we aren’t blessed with many restorers and shops. If u’ve been to S.E.A, there is hardly an original bug , 70 % are bastardised and perhaps only in Thailand cars are of a reasonable standard. Where im at, there’s probably only 500 bugs and 15 vans in the whole country. Yes pathetic. Everything I buy is mostly from the States (WW , Sewfine, CB, or cip1.com for their v easy to navigate website) and I don’t have very deep pockets for this project cos on average shipping costs alone make up 30-40% of my total purchases and ive restored 4 so far. Still I must make her a nice example of a resto cal oval in S.E Asia cos its an Oval!. Before I do anything, I would like to seek your advice.
Heres the scenarios im confronted with:

1) Option 1 Convert the car from a kingpin to balljoints. And have it lowered on spindles; itcomes with the discbrake kit in anycase. http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D4121 . (Cip1.com claims they are zero offset spindles , what do you reckon?) Ive read the forums and there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that dropped spindles offers a better ride than adjuster but the inclination is clearly towards the former when we talk about ride comfort or a combo of both for the extreme narrowed/lowered. Im not sure how much of the ride comfort in my oval can be attributed to the dropped spindles , like wise how much of the bumpiness in the 63 is becos of the adjusters. But im willing place a bet on spindles.

Option 2 Stay on link pins and use a narrowed CB performace 2 inch narrowed to offset the track width. This is where my dilemma lies. I do not want the track width pushed out so if I stay on king pins and do a conversion to disc brakes with dropped spindles I should expect a 1 to 1.5 inch push outwards. Not sure if I need adaptors as well. This is a no-no. To counter this, I can put on a 2” narrowed beam with adjusters, but a 300usd beam becomes a 600 usd product cos of shipping to where im at. This is not so much the main preventive factor , but rather the point made by many experienced narrowed beamers that the it invariably harshens the ride. So ride, lowness and tuck are equally important and I know it sounds greedy. Im not keen on narrowed beams as I have no experience with it (is it retractable?) and the mechanic I use don’t have any experience on narrowing beams. (Yes very strangely they have experience doing the king pin to ball joint conversions, welding the bulkhead etc but they don’t with narrowed beams as they are a rare UFO sighting in this part of the universe) I don’t know what further mods eg shock tower, gas tank positioning, steering are needed with narrowed beams (even 2 inch) and would not want to be drawn into another world of complications, if u know what I mean. If I was in the States or UK , without a doubt I would do it cos I know the guys are professional and theres a critical mass of narrowed beamers) . Correct me if im wrong, between a link pin and ball joint set up and all else being constant, the track width is going to be widened more in the link pin car if I use the Fuchs/brake disc/dropped spindles setup. Hence I don’t really want to negate the so called benefits of using dropped spindles by using a narrowed beam to solely offset the track width margins caused by the disc brake/Fuchs/Spindle setup. I would need to have a net net narrowed gain of an inch each way if I were to use a 2inch narrowed beam
Disc brake kit for link pin http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D4122 Any thoughts?

Option 3 Convert to ball joint and still put in narrowed beam
If the Oval drives well after conversion to ball joint/dropped spindles. I could still explore idea of putting in a CB 2 inch narrowed with adjusters, Overall Im closer to reaching the holy grail look of 2.5 inch inwards each side that I can only achieve with a 4inch narrowed on a king pin set up. Is this thought flawed? Morever, with adjusters on the narrowed beam (in addition to my dr0pped spindles), I have extra ammunition to slam it further if I really am willing to sacrifice comfort for the ‘to die for’ look .

I appreciate your thoughts and advise on how best to proceed. Any ideas or suggestions are more than welcome. I love these old bugs but without the physical access to the best shops and people physically, you guys will be my guiding light. Let me know if there is anything I should take note of -- is a narrowed beam a really simple thing to do irregardless of link /ball joint setups with no repercussions? Is there such a thing as a zero offset dropped spindle on link pin?

[Airkewld]

WoW, now that is a post! I will see if I can help.

1) There is no such thing a zero offset drop spindles. It's marketing. Drop Spindles will give you the same ride as stock. All the down travel you want and no up travel. Adjustable/Narrowed Beams will allow for 3- 7" of adjustments depending on who you go with and ultimately you should only use 2-4" off it so that you do not bottom out your ball joints or swing your control arms past parallel.

2) Stay with link pins if you can. If you are going with 4.5's and 6's, do not even spend the money on a beam till you know you will need it. I am sure you will like the look with out it.
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Danger: Rant zone.

I've been trying to "get smart" on the front suspension of my beam bug so that I can actually drive it at speed without the WHITE KNUCKLE effect. And I have come up with some things, IMHO that really need to be addressed, at least for me. Some are petty. Some seem real important.

1st.
I do want to get the front end down (ball joint bug). The only way to do this correctly is with DROPPED SPINDLES. Of course. Anybody who tells you it won't effect your ride.. is just fooling themselfs. ANYTHING done different to the geometry other than stock "effects your ride". Yes, to varying degrees. But it does. Lowered spindles changes the attitude of the your ride (all things being equal). Which changes the castor (uber important in high speed stability) And it also changes the dynamics of how your spindle confronts obsticals. Basically changing the angle of the dangle But it is the BEST method over just turning the beams and really hosing up the works. Dr. Porsche would roll over...

One thing that I discovered after purchasing some 2.5" dropped spindles (EMPI - please forgive me) is that I was shocked at how heavy they were... 8+Lbs to be exact. I haven't got the stock spindle off yet to weigh it.. but just eyeballing it I can tell you it's most likely 1/2 the weight. And when considering "un-sprung weight" which direclty affects the suspension's performance... by a agreed upon factor of 10 to 1 (1Lb on in un-sprung weight is similiar to 10Lbs of weight on the car itself)... Houston we have a problem. Especially considering that I am laying out some serious ca$h for CMS wheels to get that weight down. Just to have it put back on by some jack ass lowered spindles? I don't think so. Not sure what I'm doing on this one yet. I Googled the hell out of "light weight spindles" etc (in all search forms) but nada yet. This is something the vendors are not sharing.. Here! These wheels are SUPER LIGHT.. they will go great with our SUPER HEAVE spindles!!

2nd
Lightweight wheels. CMS is my choice because they are near my house. Super light wheels will allow the suspension to work properly and at it's best. It will also let me get the the "tire scrub" (SAI) back to factory dimensioins. This is the other no brainer I ran accross. Tire SCRUB (Google it if it's a new term) is super uber important to getting the handling working correctly. Just popping on any wheel is just a roll of the dice. Add dropped spindles "extra width" and you got some crazy scrub numbers. I had no idea how important this is. And every time we use disk brake or dropped spindles.. and random wheels other than stock, we are changing the SAI or tire scrub. I am not going to choose the correct CMS wheel offset strickly to correct the SAI (Steering Axis Inclination) setting. You have to Google this and burn it into your brain. It will change your whole way of thinking about your suspension

3rd
Once the scrub (SAI) is correct it's time to get the wheels back under the fender. This is where the narrowing comes in. I've decided this should all be done in a specific order. No guessing...
1. Choose/Install dropped spindles and or disk brake spindles
2. Choose the wheel offset that puts the scrub back close to factory
3. And now narrow the beam to pull the wheel in it's place.
I though I would just cut the center section out of a old bent beam and then mount it on the car and then push the beam together until the correct time posistion is achieved... What ever is to your likes. Less the better of course. I've been going nuts trying to guess the beam I need... 2"? 3"? 4"?.. without really thinking about the other effects of the lowering and wheel choice.

4th
BUMP STEER. Want to drive fast, saftely? It's got to go... The bug just has bump steer, period. That's the way it comes from the factory. With a top speed of 70-80? Not a big issue. But higher speeds? A WHITE KNUCKLER. The only way to lose bump steer (the most) is to change the steering design. You would need equal length tie rods going from the steering to each wheels. Check out a old bug. The driver's side is like 12" and the passenger is more like 3ft. As the suspension goes through it's motions, each wheel will follow a different arc. Pulling on the spindle differently from side to side. Basically each wheel will have a mind of it's own. I've decided to go with a 914/912/930 center mount rack and pinion. I actually have bought 3 to play with.. Don't have all the results in. But I was really surprised to find that the width was very close, maybe even using the Porsche tie rods (I only eye balled it) and the ball joint taper was identical! The racks ball joints drop right into my later beam front end spindles. And the action of that steering was pure BUTTER... Where my steering box had some scary play in it and the typical "lack of feel".. the R&P was just magical. I even bought into some "Turbo Tie Rods" (secretly just for the name!) to remove one of the inner, rubber clevis connections. Ok.. yes, the steering wheel shaft will now go directly up the middle.. along with two (provided) universal joints to get it to the wheel. You can't use the factory bug steering location due to the angle.. Well, you could I guess, but it so steep that the steering would become quite stiff. A very basic mount plate welded onto the beam, two bolts and BoomShagalagaa. Look out.. I'm coming through! No photos yet \

5th
Speaking of high speed. CASTER SHIMS. Even if you never touched the front end. The factory caster is set for ease of steering for Grandma and Grampa.. Not for high speed stability. Adding to much castor just increases the turnign force... I'm going with two sets. Just think of the front end of dragsters.. those wheels pretty much flop side to side... Of course that's over the top. But they steer straight at 300+.

6th
Rought suspension? Loose the Gas Shocks!! I really don't know what Gas shocks are doing on a street car. My experience is that they knock your teeth out as compared to factory style OEM oil shocks. Back in the day.. everybody had to get them.. Some pretty slick marketing.. I'm going with the with vw factory style ones.

I also read quite that members are experiencing stiff rides (aka bumpy?).. All I can say is that when I put my suspension together.. I will try/test out each and every part of the suspension before it's all assembled when I can't tell who the culprit is. Like putting the control arms in the tubes "without" the torsion bars.. individually I would expect them to move quite freely? Then assemble them with the ball joints (in my case) and keep that tesing going throughout the process..

I understand that people are able to get away without any shocks when the beam is super narrow because the torsion bar(s) are so short that they just become that stiff... Another back in the day move was to remove a few bars (yes, sounds scary!). And then cut short pieces off and weld them in the center and ends to make sure the locking set screws work as normal. I might pull 1 or 2 out to try and soften the shorter bars if the narrowing was drastic.

Air pressure... IMHO, the tires are 20% of your suspension... pumping the pressure up to save gas seems to be what the automakes are selling? And it's bleeding over to regular folks. This can make it ride like a rock.. Tree huggers be dammed. You just have to watch a wheel roll up a curb and slightly miss the driveway to see how far a normal tire "gives".. and cushions the curb.. I'm sure the 135's arn't helping either..?

Left all to chance... this could add up to one nasty, scary ride? Hey, that sounds like every old bug I've been in.

Please, ring in anybody... Corrections are welcomed. If I'm not set straight, I may wander and start ranting again.

[beatle1]

Thanks guys..its a silly question - why do u suggest i stay with link pins? I hear ball joints bind if car is lowered too much but the link pins have their own problems don't they? So if i go by looks and , based on your experiences. If im using the same setup (Fuchs, dropped spindles on c brake discs) will the track width be increased more for the link pin or ball joint vehicleIf you are going with 4.5's and 6's,

I think i will take yr advice and not spend the money on a beam as yet. A 2 inch does nothing except bring it back to stock state

[olskool58]

[beatle1]

[Teeroy]

To go from K&L to Balljoint you have to change the frame head, the two beams have a different spacing and do not interchange
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