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Manual transmission rebuild - What would you do?
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r39o
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:15 pm    Post subject: Manual transmission rebuild - What would you do? Reply with quote

So I have the standard 3/4 slider issue. Needs a new one. Everything else just fine and the box has 200K on it from my 1990 Multivan. The van has an EJ22 going in. I plan to run 215/65-16 tires. The trans is waiting at Rancho for parts.

I want to drive this thing on the freeway to go places. Once or twice a year we may go in snow or sand a little. Just your normal go to the mountains in So Cal or to a camp ground some where not too far off the beaten track with the kids. Go to the beach more or to the park.

This is a two wheel drive we want to go normal places with. Maybe one or two family trips across country. Mostly on high way. Off road is not the usual target, but maybe a little on a dirt road. We are NOT off roaders. In fact, we would stop in motels just as much as camp.

So given this, what would you do? (I have searched this some, too btw.)

!. I read the ratios are just fine if I use bigger tires (from the Suby-Vanagon list.) But just how big I never find out. What is the story here?

2, Related to the above, do I want a different 4th gear like a 0.77? How is the gap 3rd to 4th? Do I want this or not? Does it really make better mpgs?

3. Since we may go in the snow or sand a couple of times a year, maybe, do I want the limited slip? (BIG bux here.) Do I really need this as we just don't do it much, but once in a while, maybe?

4. Locker? Costs like another grand or more on top of everything?
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Worms
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 2.5 Subaru, and 215-65-16's.

I find the gearing is quite good - too much taller and the tourque would be affected. I think i'm doing about 3100 at 62 mph (100 km/h).

My trans is a South African one, I'm not sure on the ratios right now, but very similar to the US 2.1's

If you use a taller 4th, I would go a lot less than 5% over all.

I noticed a slight power drop going from 205/70-14's to the 16's above. Still very quick though.

I can use third gear up to about 140km/h - about 85 MPH, although my JDM 2.5 will rev a bit higher than your 2.2. Hills I used to sit on 50 mph in 3rd with the WBX, I can now do 60MPH in top.

With the 2.5, I move faster, slow down less, and use less gas.

I can also use a lot more gas if I try, as I can drive like a madman and really move the thing!

A subie engine will drive along at 60mph in 3rd on a standard gasser trans all day.

I've seen graphs of the EJ22 fuel consumption - For a given load (resistance) the fuel consumptio is very constant from about 2000 up to about 4000 rpm. From 4000 to 5000 the consumption goes up a bit, and from 5K up it gets a lot hungrier.

I had an early legacy with a dud auto trans, and it was stuck in third (no fourth left). It did about 4400 rpm all day for weeks (I was a repair tech covering a city and the surrounding rural area). so 60 MPH at 4400 increased my fuel consumption by about 10 percent. Normally at 60 mph it would pull about 2800 (1992 JDM 2.0 dohc)

Using too high gearing also drastically alters the resistance the engine feels, and can cause worse fuel consumption too (sometimes MUCH worse).

You don't want to get it wrong and be disappointed. - talk to some people!

I live in a semi-hilly country area with not many straight bits, and wouldn't bother changing gearing - the tyres were enough for me!

Allan.
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you plan on running larger tires, I would just keep the ratios the same and have the transmission rebuilt. I also wouldn't bother with a .77 4th gear because the up gearing of the overall ratios by going through larger tires will raise your cruising gear suffiently. And yes, 1.23:1 to .77:1 is a huge gap and huge gaps with 4 speed transmissions where you are depending on each ratio so much can be frustrating.

If you can afford it, a torque biasing diff is always a nice thing. The improvement in snow traction is dramatic. There are those who say the van gets too tail happy with a limited slip diff, but with good tires that provide sufficient grip that shouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't go with a locker diff. While this does give the absolute best traction in all conditions that you can get out of a 2wd, it can only be used in emergency conditions while a tbd is helping you out all the time.

It's nice to have a lot of options, but you have to be very selective to keep from dropping $4000 on a tranny overhaul.

David
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have 215/70/16 tires on my '89 westy and the ej22. I just put on my winter wheels a few months ago which are 215/60/16 and the difference in hill climbing power is substantial. I am going to sell my new 215/70/16's and drop down to the 215/65/16's. Although I love the lower revs at highway speeds, the loss of hill climbing torque is a downer. Also unless I have a tail wind, the bigger tires do not represent any higher MPG's. I log every fill up and I will soon be doing an analysis of MPG's (GPS verified). I am guessing about .5-1.5 miles per gallon LESS with the bigger tires.

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r39o
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:
It's nice to have a lot of options, but you have to be very selective to keep from dropping $4000 on a tranny overhaul.

Ah yes, yes, the budget....

Budget, budget, we don't need not stinking budget.

I have been leaning towards a stock rebuild. I have added the oiling deflector plates and am using the SmallCar bell housing. A Weedle supplied beefy 3/4 slider is also being used.

I did read that the consensus is to leave the gear ratios alone. It is $300 I can save.

Now I need decide on the differential. The Chyrsler Routan POS spun one wheel in the packed ice over the weekend and I thought I should have something better. I had to be oh so careful parking over the weekend in the local mountains. Maybe if I had better tires than the stock it would not be so bad, but it got me to thinking. So I ask my fellow Sambanistas who are far wiser than I in such matters.

Let me think on this and see how the wallet reacts too.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I am a slightly mental and can't wait to destroy my tranny to add the peloquin! Here in the NW it will be very handy. I am up at the mountains pretty much every weekend, so lots of snow driving.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the .77 4th put in my tranny and im running 215/65/17s. I also had the 3dr changed to the stronger one.I like the freeway speed but i dont think id change from stock if i were doing it again


ADDTHE Peloquin!!! I find it works great for the rainy roads around here. You are adding more tork with the 2.2 suby. I found i was spinning one tire with out the Peloquin. Yes its worth the bux!!


jcl
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got the er27 2.7 liter subie and 215/75R15 tires. I had Daryl build up the trans with a .77 4th and the next taller 3rd, I can't remember what it was. It works pretty well but I have to shift down to 3rd going up the pass with a full load if I want to maintain 60. Other than that I'm hapopy with it. I've never broken 20 mph though. Maybe my foot it too heavy.

I've got an open diff and I've taken my westy on a lot of poorly maintained logging roads around Mt. St. Hellens with no problem. It was dry out but some of the gravel wat pretty loose. I couldn't justify the extra 1200 for the limmited slip at the time of the rebuild and I've been fine so far.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Manual transmission rebuild - What would you do? Reply with quote

r39o wrote:
So I have the standard 3/4 slider issue. Needs a new one. Everything else just fine and the box has 200K on it from my 1990 Multivan. The van has an EJ22 going in. I plan to run 215/65-16 tires. The trans is waiting at Rancho for parts.

I want to drive this thing on the freeway to go places. Once or twice a year we may go in snow or sand a little. Just your normal go to the mountains in So Cal or to a camp ground some where not too far off the beaten track with the kids. Go to the beach more or to the park.

This is a two wheel drive we want to go normal places with. Maybe one or two family trips across country. Mostly on high way. Off road is not the usual target, but maybe a little on a dirt road. We are NOT off roaders. In fact, we would stop in motels just as much as camp.

So given this, what would you do? (I have searched this some, too btw.)

!. I read the ratios are just fine if I use bigger tires (from the Suby-Vanagon list.) But just how big I never find out. What is the story here?

2, Related to the above, do I want a different 4th gear like a 0.77? How is the gap 3rd to 4th? Do I want this or not? Does it really make better mpgs?

3. Since we may go in the snow or sand a couple of times a year, maybe, do I want the limited slip? (BIG bux here.) Do I really need this as we just don't do it much, but once in a while, maybe?

4. Locker? Costs like another grand or more on top of everything?


I have 215 75-15's with my EJ22 Subi and don't think I would change the 3rd or 4th ratios at all. If anything I would like a slightly lower 1st gear. I thought about changing 3rd and 4th but left them stock. The subi is very happy cruising at 4000 rpm which will keep you going nicely with trafic in CA.

Brian
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting.

2.2L, well, what is the hight of the stock tire? 25in? So if you run 16 what will be your total hight? For each inch subtract about 150-200 rpm.

I have 15 with low profile tire, so I' back to about stock hight. I have the .77 and sometime i wish i had the .70. Where? flat highway! Hills, stay stock.

Cruising speed? Live in the mountain? Mostly highway?

The 2.2 and 2.5 are really similar at low and mid range, it's on highway speed and steep hill that you feel the real increase in power.

If you plan to do 10hr a day driving on flat road put the .77.

A difficult choice

Ben
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r39o
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Manual transmission rebuild - What would you do? Reply with quote

scubabrian wrote:
I have 215 75-15's with my EJ22 Subi and don't think I would change the 3rd or 4th ratios at all. If anything I would like a slightly lower 1st gear. I thought about changing 3rd and 4th but left them stock.

It is getting pretty clear that for the EJ22 and EJ25 the stock gearing with somewhat bigger tires is just fine.

It is also getting clear that in the wet weather of the Pac NW up there that a limited slip sure is dang nice. Is it $1200 nice for So Cali?????

scubabrian wrote:
The subi is very happy cruising at 4000 rpm which will keep you going nicely with trafic in CA.

How fast are you going at around 4K?

I am quite happy to putt putt around at 65 in the Vanagon (my 85 automatic too) but it can be dangerous here. [rant] Can't some other drivers "see" my big white elephants on the road?[/rant]

From one of the above posts I see the fuel economy drops at 4K so it interests me as gas is getting pricey again. (I may still keep my 98 NB TDI....) But our vans tend to only come out on the weekends anyways.

scubabrian wrote:
Brian San Diego

SD driving is where we are most of the time. So going down to PB / LJ or to Sea World for kite or model airplanes is like most of what we would do with it. Going up to Laguna or further like Plaster City is done a couple of times a year too.
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r39o
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ftp2leta wrote:
Interesting.

If you plan to do 10hr a day driving on flat road put the .77.

A difficult choice


From our other trips here on the West coast there NEVER is any just flat driving for more than a few hours. It is ALWAYS up some or down some or in traffic. Anything within a few hours of here is not just flat.

When we take that long trip to Vermont via Denver to visit friends and relatives then I guess there may be some long flat stretches, I guess. Then it will be up to Bennie's to have my long time friend's van Suby infused from Vermont (he WILL be convinced they are good - you know how those Frenchies are! (LONG story here,,,,))

So unless I change 3rd to a bit longer, so I take up the slack that the .77 gives it is not so sweet looking. I do sometime want to build a 2.5 with 2.2 heads....but that is later and I can re gear then, I guess.

"A difficult choice"

I still leaning to stock gearing.....
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't thing the alternate rear end ratio would be a real good idea with the oversized tires.
You'll be overdriving the engine beyond it's capacity to pull the Van in 4th gear efficiantly.
If you had a hundred extra ponies available , it would be a different story.
The 90 some horse isn't enough to allow you to cruise in adverse road conditions , and you'll be lugging the heck out of the engine.
Maybe if you went down to the 185's again it would be OK.
But with both the engine will be struggling, and you'll be dropping back down to 3rd to keep the engine within a respectable, efficiant portion of the powerband.
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r39o
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last consideration: Differential

After using the search some more, I found the below. It seems although the TBD can help, it is not the cure all. Good tires and sensible driving are better for the snow, which I only go into about once a year.

Or is it just too late and I am not thinking right?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3350588

TBD for a So Cali boy with a van that sees the snow once or twice a year when it is not snowing and where we get little rain and the the van stays mostly stays at home during the week?????

The $1200 *IS* a consideration, but not getting stuck with kids and wife is more important. I could spend that money on a propane heater for example.

Besides I can build another gear box when I build my 2.5 with 2.2 heads???? I will have a better idea of what I like, I think then, I am thinking.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

when i did my subi 2.5 i left the gearing alone, stock 14in rims, just my experience but i will throw it in the pot anywho.......i never kept track of mpg but what i did notice was the poor tranny whining especially on the highway, top end speed was no better than the wbx, tourque was great , de acceleration noise was incredibly loud ...just seemed like the tranny as a whole could not handle what this motor puts out .shifting points were about the same you just got there quicker, since re gearing the whining noise has stopped and the van cruises happily on the highway still @65-70 but when necc i can hit it and it still pulls & pulls & pulls ...the tourque is there for the hills but we dont have ones like you guys on the west coast here i went with a 1.14 3rd & .77th 4th welded hubs & oiling plates, no change to r&p...1 & 2 are slightly longer, third will pull to 50-55 , 4th from there...motor has so much tourque..i do all highway driving no around town, no off roading, straight up state-crossing highway driving
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've only done the suby 2.5 swaps but I like the one step up third gear (forget the exact ratio) and the .77 4th gear. It's nice to drop the RPM on the highway, it'll help your MPG a bit and quiet the engine down too.

I don't really get people complaining about not being able to accelerate hard while going up a mountain at 65 in 4th gear. Just downshift, and you'll be fine. You'd probably do fine with the stock third gear and the .77 as well but it is a bit of a jump, not too bad though. With the stock 4th gear you'll hardly ever have to downshift on the highway but that's because the revs are already up in the 3.5 to 4k range and the engine is screaming along needlessly. With a taller 4th, think of it as more of an overdrive and it'll be nice on the flats, and fine for moderate inclines but for steeper mountains you'll have to downshift. No big deal.

My 2.5 Suby is an auto and I'm currently running 215/70R16 tires, it's okay but I'd rather have taller gearing and shorter tires, too bad the autos can't be changed economically.

I'd have a hard time justifying the cost of a limited slip. It would be nice, but unnecessary for normal use. If you do a lot of snow driving it would be worth it but since you said you aren't going to be doing any off roading that's about it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

r39o wrote:

TBD for a So Cali boy with a van that sees the snow once or twice a year when it is not snowing and where we get little rain and the the van stays mostly stays at home during the week?????

The $1200 *IS* a consideration, but not getting stuck with kids and wife is more important. I could spend that money on a propane heater for example.

For what you descirbe of your van's typical usage, it is hard to rationalize another ~$1200 for a Peloquin.
Likely a little handbrake and/or tire chains is all you're ever going to NEED.

That said.. a Peloquin is in my build list.. I'm just not going to worry about justifying it. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The gear style locker is one of those things that does not pencil out BUT it is werth the extra money!! getting the power to the ground is whats it all about.

2.5 with 2.2 heads?? Why? the 2.2 heads have a volume of 41-46cc. the 2.5 are 56cc. useing the 2.2 will raise the compretion way up. The 2.2 heads dont flow like the 2.5s do. The 2.2s would be a step backwards. For more porer out of the 2.2 run the OBD2 harness and computer.

Off topic Sorry Iv just done a ton of research on the 2.2t. and wanted to pass it on..


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a914622 wrote:
2.5 with 2.2 heads?? Why?

OBD1 emissions special: High torque 2.5L engine with with 160 hp and 155 lb/ft of torque $4995

http://www.smallcar.com/index.php?dispatch=pages.view&page_id=11
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going with a GW 5 speed when mine finally goes. Here is the link. A little pricey but I think its worth it.

http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=4332&category_id=93&category_parent_id=
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