Schematic for a push-button dash switch?

[drivingpenguin]

I'm trying to bench test a pushbutton dash switch... I did a bunch of searching and didn't come up with much. I'm using the "64-5 s model" wiring schematic (the one with the pushbutton switch of course), and I'm not sure what terminals J or F do (brown and blue wires). Either my switch is broken or I'm misunderstanding something.

I took apart the headlight relay and drew a schematic of it's internals... 56a is connected to 56 when high beams are selected, and F is connected to 56 when the low beams are selected. J is momentarily connected to F when either high or low beams are being selected.

If I apply 6 volts to the red wires (terminal 30) and push the headlight button, I get power at the white/black light relay wire (terminal 56). This seems very good. However, i never get anything on the brown (J), blue (F)or yellow (56) wires on the switch.... even if I connect them to a 6v light relay. I'm guessing that the blue wire (F) is supposed to bring power from the relay back to the pushbutton... maybe to then feed it out to the low beams on the yellow wire (56)? But I'm not sure. I'd love to know how the switch is wired internally.

My 65 non-pushbutton notchback doesn't have the brown (J) or blue (F) terminals, and it of course doesn't need them... the light relay's output goes directly to either the high or low beam (as shown in the 64/65 source #2 schematic). The pushbutton switch could be wired the same way as my 65, but I want to figure out how it was originally intended to work.

Any chance in hell anybody's got a schematic for the pushbutton dash switch itself?
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65 Notchback S

[Russ Wolfe]

IIRC, terminal "F" is part of the "Head light" flasher system that was used on some of the Euro cars.
You flashed your head lights when you wanted to pass another car. And you did not need your head lights on.

BTW, my 05 KIA is set up that way. Push forward on the T/S arm to get normal high beam. Pull back, and they just flash.
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Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey

Gary: OK. Ima poop.

[gregson1]

'J' terminal wire (Brown) is internally tied within the pushbutton switch to the '30' terminal and should always be considered 'hot'. When all is hooked up correctly in the car, the '30' terminal wiring is essentially direct connected right to the '+' side of the battery at all times. As a side note, on later cars without the pushbutton controls you'll find the relay 'J' and '30' terminals tied with a small gauge red wire and the power wire (usually white/black) connected to relay terminal '30', after having run through a fuse in the fuse box.

'F' terminal wire (Blue) is the Low Beam Headlight power line from the High/Low beam relay. Another side note--sometime during the first year of production, the kinda cool continuous flash capability of the high/low beam flasher was done away with, but it originally used this wire. Anyway, internal to the pushbutton switch, the 'F' terminal is switch connected to the '56b' terminal when the parking light or headlight pushbutton switch is engaged, however in actual operation is never powered unless the headlight pushbutton switch is engaged.

If the headlight relay is set to low beam and if the headlight pushbutton switch is on, a circuit exists to connect the large red '+' wire from the battery on the pushbutton '30' terminal to pushbutton '56' terminal, through the White/Black relay input wire to the '56' terminal on the relay, through the relay to the 'F' terminal on the relay down the blue wire to the 'F' terminal on the pushbutton, through the pushbutton headlight switch and out the '56b' terminal on the pushbutton and down the yellow wire to the fuse box, where it diverges and goes out through more yellow wiring to the low beam filament of the left head light and yellow/black wiring to the low beam filament on the right head light.

I might someday work out a schematic to adjust things to better support a 12V conversion, but I haven't found it necessary when armed with a good Volt/Ohm meter. Volkswagen wiring is pretty consistent in concept, with some of the exceptions you have noted with these brown and blue wires.

[drivingpenguin]

Russ and Gregson, thanks so much for the information. You are right, the wiring for these things is pretty simple and mostly consistent with a few exceptions. I can see the improvement in the '65+ cars that simplified the relay system.

Russ, you're spot on - when I took the relay apart and sketched it up I saw that J momentarily connects to F when you depress the hi/low selector switch... so as you described they will flash whenever you hit that switch, whether the lights are on or not, since J=30=6v. I suspected J and 30 were tied together as Gerson said... I was getting constant power at that terminal so.

That also explains why the lights go suuuper bright when you have your lows on and hit the beam selector... the relay turns on the high beam and as long as your holding the beam selector the momentary J to F bit turns the lows on too. As soon as you let go, the lows shut off and it's just high beams.

I figured the F circuit worked as you described... it looks like there is something wrong with my switch since I get zilch out of the yellow wire when I connect power to F. Oh well. The switch is still usable though if you run the lights with the relay configuration from the 65 non-pushbutton cars. 56 (black/white) is hot when the lights or on, so that will feed the relay and S will select high or low, which will both go straight to the lights via the fuse panel. None of this going back to the switch through F baloney. Anybody with a pushbutton should probably be doing that anyway.
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65 Notchback S

[drivingpenguin]

Got some more great information from Sebastian over at http://www.generation-luftgekuehlt.de/ (his user name is Venerea). Sebastian restored his pushbutton dash switch and took the pictures I included below. I recall a post where I think notchboy said "you'd have to be a real tweaky dude to restore one of these things". Sounds like Sebastian is a real tweaky dude... pretty good compliment I think.

Here's an exploded view of the disassembled switch:

With the top removed:

The underside of the top:

So to summarize the operation of the lights.....

When all light buttons are in the out position, you have contact beetwen
57-58
58-58b
30-J
F-56

With the parking lights on
58-58b
58-57-30-J
F-56a

With the headlight switch on (both light buttons are in)
58-58b
F-56b
58-30-56-J (J seems to be U on some older switches/schematics)

As for how the blue wire goes back to the switch to power the low beams... there is a wiper arm that does this. The button for the parking lights has a hole that moves the wiper arm... if the parking lights is off the wiper is on 56a and F (allows high beam flashing when the lows are off), and if the parking lighs are on the wiper is on 56b and F. Seems like a very ingenius yet kindof foolish way to do this.

Sebastian suggested that the hole in the button may be broken so the wiper arm can't work (it was broken in one of his switches too). He also said that with a good light you can look into the button between the two adjustment wheels to see if the wiper is working.

You can look at his complete posts if you register at http://www.generation-luftgekuehlt.de. It only takes a minute. I can't read german and couldn't find an english version of the page, so I opened it in Google Chrome which automatically translated it for me. Also, searching was tough because in german the pushbutton is called "Klaviertastatur" (thanks to Sebastian for that info too)

Here are the posts:
http://www.generation-luftgekuehlt.de/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4168
http://www.generation-luftgekuehlt.de/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5589
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65 Notchback S