not ignition switch/ecu?/clicking noise from AFM

[ottojd]

Hello
I have not been driving my VWs lately because I was trying to run only bio-diesel in my Mercedes. But alas, I have decided that MBs are not my cup of tea...Now I am getting the Vanagon back on the road.
Any way, the last time I drove the Vanagon it died at the end of my street. No warning. No nothing. Just died.
This is an 85 with a 1.9 gasser I put in probably about 5 years ago. Never had any starting issues. The only problem has been a bad exhaust system.
I changed the fuel filter right away and put some gas in. Nothing.
I think I will check the ignition switch next. The procedure in the Bentley is pretty involved: plug this here unplug this there, etc...
Can't I just put a test light between the wire that goes from the switch to the coil? Does anyone know which wire this is?
I haven't done much yet because I am waiting for the battery to be charged and it is COLD here right now. I just wanted to see if I am looking in the right direction.
Also, the fuel pump is turning on.
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62 Beetle "Sue"

[ithinkso]

for info on testing the igniton switch look for ben's (ftp2leta) post on this thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4983432&highlight=#4983432

It you by chance have the replacement switch already it makes things even easier. Remove the cover on the steering column, unplug the wires going to the ignition switch and plug them into the new switch. You can then turn the ignition switch with a screwdriver or something similar. Should take about 30 seconds to do...
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“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds.”
- Edward Abbey

1985 Westy, Zetec powered

[thatvwbusguy]

The ignition switch is certainly a possibility, but there are more obvious places to look first. Start with the basics, fuel, spark and timing. You have a good fuel filter, but are the injectors spraying? If the van has been sitting for a long time there is a decent chance that the injectors are gummed up. Once you confirm fuel, check for a good spark. After these are known entities, your no start issue will be much easier to troubleshoot.

Good luck!
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Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[camerahunter]

Blown fuse?
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1984 - Daily driver

[motelvw]

Hey Otto, I still have a spare switch you can borrow. Let me know if you need a hand.
Does it turn over at all? Why do you have to do this in the dead of winter?

[morymob]

How about a better description of 'nothing happens' we don't read minds, maybe later but what happens when key turned???

[VW_Paul]

I just tested the ignition switch on my '86.

There are two wires in the switch that I tested: the solid red and the red with a black tracer. Both were a slightly heavier gauge than the other wires in the switch and should be readily noticeable.

With a test light, the solid red should have power all the time. The red/black should only have power when the key is in the START position.

In my case, the red/black was not getting power because the female spade connector had gotten loose in the housing and was not connecting with the male spade of the switch.

Hopefully this will help. (I never tested the rest of the wires at the switch because once R&R'd the red/black my problem was solved).

[ottojd]

Thanks everybody
My battery is at a friends on a real charger and I have been busy all day so haven't had a chance to start on the van.
Hey Roger, I would love to borrow the switch. Then I can order one from Bus Depot if it is the problem. I was going to get one from a big-box at $23, while the Depot one is Meyle for 6 bucks. What the...

The lights all turn on when I turn the key. (Except for the oil light but that's another problem). The fuel pump starts. The starter turns. The car died while running and wouldn't start again.
I don't think the injectors would have clogged. I had been driving it about once every two weeks. Also, it was running just fine. That's why I think it is probably electrical. I am one of those dummies that puts too many keys on my key chain, so it makes sense to me to start there. I will let you all know when I actually get out there.
Why am I doing it in the cold? Well, the Mercedes auto transmission won't shift into 3rd and I have my other cars stored. Need to get around somehow.
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62 Beetle "Sue"

[camerahunter]

I still say blown fuse or it could also be that the wire fell off the starter.
What exactly have you checked?

Thank you,

David
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1984 - Daily driver

[ottojd]

Well, the VW fairy left an ignition switch at my house to test (not implying that you are a fairy, Roger). This was not the problem.
It is getting fuel. I can smell it.
I can't check spark right now as I am by myself.
All fuses good and in contact.
The air box is clicking as the motor turns, but I think that is just the butterfly opening and closing right?
However, I don't ever remember this noise before when starting the van. Is it maybe not opening enough to let air in?
I disconnected the idle stabilizer to take that off the list also.
Can the AFM actually cause a no-start issue?
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62 Beetle "Sue"

[tencentlife]

There are no fuses in the vital engine control circuits. This is true on German and Swedish cars in general, and a lot of other types.

When you key on and you hear the fuel pump run for a bit, you know a number things are true:

#15 circuit is being powered by the ignition switch, among many other things, that circuit powers or triggers relays that switch power to all engine control systems.

The FI relays have #30 battery power to them, so connections at alternator and inside junction box are intact.

Main FI relay is closing, meaning #15 power is reaching the ignition coil as well since the connection that triggers the relay is made there.

ECU is receiving power via the main FI relay, and has at least basic power-up circuits working because....

the fuel pump relay is closing. The ECU triggers the fuel pump relay when it powers up.

And you know the fuel pump has power and a working ground.

Now knowing these things are true when the key is switched on does not necessarily mean they are true when the engine is being cranked. If it cranks you know the #50 circuit is being powered by the ignition switch. But you don't know whether power to #15 is dropping out while the ign. switch is in the cranking position. So look at the idiot lights; if they remain on while cranking, the ign.switch is keeping power on #15 while cranking as it should.

So, just keying on, cranking however briefly, and looking at the idiot lights tells you a lot of things about some of the essential electric circuits that are required for the engine to run. You don't know much about the quality of some of the switching or connections, just that the circuits are being closed at minimum.
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[Wildthings]

The AFM clicking could indicate a valve problem. Hope you don't have to go there.

Get yourself a remote starter from you local chain auto parts or Walmart. This way you can stand next to the engine while you are cranking it and can check for spark, etc.

[ottojd]

Why would an issue with the valves cause the AFM to click?
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62 Beetle "Sue"

[motelvw]

[Wildthings]

[ottojd]

So that would explain why there is a strong fuel smell in the intake elbow, eh?
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62 Beetle "Sue"

[morymob]

Does yours have a TAC, if so does the needle move around as u crank? That would mean power to hall sensor assy not being lost.

[ottojd]

I am kind of in a pinch. This van had been old faithful for a good number of years now.
If it is a valve (I would imagine #3 cylinder becasue its lifter was always the loudest) should I just pull the head off of the core motor I have sitting in my garage? It had a bad thrust bearing. Can I change the driver's side head without pulling the motor?
Still, wouldn't the motor at least fire with a bad valve and wouldn't there be some sort of noise from it?
All of this is hypothetical of course, but it would be good to know my options when I step back out into the arctic to troubleshoot.
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62 Beetle "Sue"

[Wildthings]

Don't go tearing things apart until you have done a thorough diagnostic. Make sure you have spark to each cylinder and that you have good compression and leak down. You of course need normal fuel delivery from the injectors.

[IdahoDoug]

Agree - don't go tearing things apart at this early stage. You may be able to detect a stuck valve by putting a ratchet on the crank bolt and turning it over where you'll feel one cylinder has markedly different compression. Take the dist cap off and you'll even be able to identify it if as you say you have a suspect cylinder. As you hand crank, the rotor will be telling you which cylinder you're compressing. Or which cylinder has no compression.

Have you considered firing a bit of starter fluid in and seeing if it will pop once or twice. Go easy at first and of course this is better with someone to crank and you spraying. Have a fire extinguisher handy as is standard practice with this.

Also, have you verified spark by pulling an actual plug out and grounding it? I realize this also needs someone to crank, but perhaps you could find just a neighbor kid or similar.


DougM
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1993 Toyota LandCruiser, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader