camber shims.

[bug65]

i need to add some neg camber to one of my front spindles, would it be harmful to add two extra shims to the lower control arm in order to gain 2 deg. towards the neg. side. right now they are set as the shim chart specifies after measuring the off set.
thanks
jd

[vwsteve]

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

I sure hope you mean .2 degrees of Camber.
2 degrees would'nt be very good meaning you have something bent or something assembled wrong.

And no to correct you would need to add the shims to the inside bottom shim pack to give more negative Camber. It would basically push the bottom of the knuckle outward thus angling the spindle upward correcting your positive Camber and creating negative Camber.

0 degrees Camber tire/wheel is straight plumb vertical.
Negative Camber leans the top of the tire toward the car center.
Positive Camber leans the top of the tire tire outwards away from car center.

Or you can think about it the other way too.
Negative Camber leans the bottom of the tire outward
Positive Camber leans the bottom of the tire inward.

Dont get confused now, it means the same thing.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited

[bill may]

do not do this.
_________________
Admin note: Bill Passed away - July, 2017

1965 panel bus-Kermit
"Camping is cheaper than therapy"
www.sv2s.com
www.steeringboxscrapers.net
SBS #100
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=453617

[drscope]

You can NOT do this!

Camber is NOT set, adjusted or controlled by the shims.

Camber is set and controlled by the ANGLE which is cast into the link pin carrier!

Resetting shims off the chart means that the link pin carrier is no longer in it's proper angle to the control arm faces.

That will cause the link pins to bind up and wear out very quickly.
_________________
Mother Nature is a Mean Evil Bitch!

[vwsteve]

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

Oh You CAN do this, but it can have an effect on life of the shims and links. It essentially will cock the shims and does put more pressure on the entire link, but it does work. It is not a prefered method though (as you can see from above) and I dont routinely do this to my own or my customers cars.

If the situation is to the point of measuring the plumb of the contol arm faces vs the link pin carrier something needs to be replaced to correct your condition. Yes I would say if you measures 3/8 inch difference from a plumb surface to the top of the wheel and the bottom of the wheel with the weight of the vehicle on the wheels, plus on a near perfectly level flat surface, it is too much.
I prefer slightly positive Camber on the front or zero. Positive Camber means the top of the tire is OUTWARDS Away from the car center (thrust line center). From what you posted you measured was negative Camber, TOP Inwards with the shims in the correct posistion.

.2 degree (either negative or positive) Camber is generally not enough to consider exteme, unless you have an issue where the cross Camber (side to side) difference is opposite of each other then it can induce a drifting or pulling feel.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited

[drscope]

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

I agree to disagree. Shims are for arm offset, not truly for Camber adjustment.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited

[bug65]

wow, you all are really against shimming off the chart. i am planning to just disassemble and take another measurement. i know there is some ware in the link pins but the car drives very straight and supper smooth. it also has a lack of caster due to the rake of my car. i think i will order caster shims and see if that helps my tires last a bit longer.
thanks for all the replies.
jd

[drscope]

The faces of the trailing arms are not parallel to each other. That's the reason for needing the shims.

Basically, you are taking that distance and filling it with shims so everything stays square.

The link pin comes through the carrier and the hole in the trailing arm. There is not supposed to be any slop in the holes which they go through.

So to change the angle of the link pin carrier in order to adjust camber, the link pin would HAVE to angle in the bushing.

It CAN NOT do that unless it is wallowing out the bushing, no matter how many shims you put behind it. Unless you bend the link pin.

You are NOT using the shims to set camber. You use the shims to make sure the link pin carrier is square to the trailing arm faces.

Hold the link pin carrier with the bushings in your hand so it is upright. Slip the link pins into the bushing. Now lean the carrier over to simulate camber.

If you are paying attention, you will see the link pins changed their angle in relation to the ground.

So unless the hole through your bushings, or the hole through the trailing arm changes it's angle, putting shims in where the chart says not to isn't going to give you the results you think it is.
_________________
Mother Nature is a Mean Evil Bitch!

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

Technically you can add or reduce Camber by adding or taking away shims, but it comes at a big cost....the link pins, shims and bushings just wont last and will wear out faster than normal. The issue is as Dr. Scope has pointed out when you ad (or take away) the shims it creates an issue where the shims and carrier basically dont fit flush and flat.
When he states link pin relation to the ground he means the horizontal level of the pin in comparison to the road surface or better a level surface. With the incorrect shim amounts, and assembled, you think the pins are tight, flat and everything is fine, it is actually appling more force on one side of the shims and trying to cock the pin in its bore. It will wear the shims and bushings out quicker, thus eventually eliminating the Camber you have tried to correct. Thats the reason for properly measuring the offset and installing the correct shim amounts per side and location. Then measure the assembled Camber and if out of specs, replace worn, bent or tired weak parts to correct.

Think about it this way. Assemble just the lower pin and tighten it up. If the gap for the top shims is greater than the amount of shims required, you essentially would have to try and force the carrier tight against the trailing arm which will try to twist the lower arm or upper arm and put more side load pressure on everything, thus binding and wearing when in use. The purpose of measuring the offset, is to be sure that the carrier, shims and arms surface all lay flat on each other, with as low as possible side loads on the bushings and pins, so everything works together smoothly.

Caster is not normally a contributor to tire wear unless you are constantly turning. Like a road race car. Think of Caster as a stabilty enhancer for straight driving. The more Caster the more stable. Caster also contributes to the return rate to center of the steering wheel. The majority of tire wear is toe and tire pressure, well and Camber if it's extreme.

Here is the chart for perfect world VW's . You may find out yours may be off the chart. Sometimes the perfect world used 50 year old VW doesn't exist.

Here is the VW manual Camber reference.

_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited

[drscope]

Yes, what he said better then I could! ^^^^^^
_________________
Mother Nature is a Mean Evil Bitch!

[61SNRF]

So in other words, just fix the problem and stop screwing around with the shims. The factory specifications are all you need to go by.
If the beam and frame are straight, get some new control arms to start with. I know with Ball joint arms you can look at them when they're out and be able to tell when they're bent. They bend in the bearing portion too, you can see this with a straight edge held against the bearing surfaces.
Once your offsets are within max specs, the shimming will be easy.
As long as you have good bushings and the spindles are not bent you will be in specs on camber.
_________________
-Bruce

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[vwsteve]

Thanks for the explanations. It looks like basically, the trailing arms need to be offset by 7mm and you adjust shims to get that. Worn or loosely adjusted link pins or worn king pins or loose wheel bearings will all create more negative (wheels leaning in at top) camber when the weight of the car is on the wheels.

[EMPIFLAKE]

IMHO it depends on what your building! Once you lower the car its all custom from that point! These cars dont have a way to adjust camber other than the shims or maybe looking for new arms or carrier with the degree your looking for. Shims are the ONLY way to adjust it and yes in might wear your link pin bushings and pins earlier! But even original setup can wear crazy! Ive seen it ! The reason is not keeping your linkpins adjusted and tight! And most people dont even mess with them so! With having no other way to adjust camber I would do it with shims aswell! keep it greased and adjusted and rool it!

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

[drscope]

[Snort]

Bentley manual reminds us to check the offset of the torsion arm link (I always call it the link pin carrier) when calculating the shim pack. If the offset is greater than +/- 0.2mm from the correct value of 7.0mm, then add the deviation into the torsion arm offset measurement.

[KTPhil]

Stressed and worn link pins are a great way to lose a wheel, a barrel o' fun at freeway speeds. Trying to set camber with shims invites just this occurance.