59 SC. New engine, No start, No crank & No fun

[matthew henricks]

59 SC. Drove fine until engine died. New engine built, ran, tested & tuned in driveway before installing into bus. Probably 90 minutes on it.

Had a high torque starter in bus which tore up the 6V flywheel. Replaced that with a new 6V starter & used 12v solenoid at same time.

- Put engine in bus. Started fine a few times.
- Starting became rough. Starter would start/stop while turning key.
- Now nothing. No click or anything.


What i have done.

- Measure 12.2V @ battery.
- Dash light bright. Dim a little when trying to start.
- Refresh solenoid. Took apart & cleaned contacts. Were good.
- Tested solenoid direct to battery. Works fine.
- Cross both large nuts at starter. Starter spins fine.
- Cross solenoid 50 & + voltage lug at starter. Solenoid jumps fine.
- Measured 12.v @ fuse box. (stock 6 fuse set-up)
- Measured 12.2v @ ignition switch terminal 30.
- Measured 0v @ ignition switch terminal 50 with key off.
- Measured 12.2v @ ignition terminal 50 with key on.
- Measured continuity on wire 50 from ignition to starter.
- Measured 8.6v across 50 & battery strap when ignition turned.
- Measured voltage drop @ battery. Rest to ignition on. 12.2v to 11.8v.
- Battery cables are in good shape.
- Engine turns over by hand without issue.
- Starter bushing in good shape.
- Bus wiring totally replaced in mid 90's and in decent shape.


I am thinking ignition switch or the need for a hard start kit. Buddy suggested a voltage drop test but not sure how to do that.

A bit frustrated.

Thank you.
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Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat.

[Eric&Barb]

[type241]

Nose cone ground strap ? Tranny needs a good ground. You can make a temporary/test strap from your starter to frame of bus to see if that is your problem.

[2Pack]

When you did this test:

"Cross solenoid 50 & + voltage lug at starter. Solenoid jumps fine."

Did the starter turn over the engine?

If not, my guess is the starter isn't meshing with the flywheel properly. You already confirmed the solenoid and starter motor are functional on their own.
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[matthew henricks]

Thank you. Some tests to run this weekend.

[BarryL]

[matthew henricks]

[matthew henricks]

Back to this slice of heaven. Thought the problem went away. What has changed…

- Fuse box soldered up on the top row where the fuse spring are.
- new battery measuring 14.4v where there was 12.2v
- Had a hard start kit so installed that.

Crank and sometimes it starts and sometimes it turns the engine ability 10 degrees.

Next step is to measure voltage drop with load and look at the headlight switch.

Question. Does the hard start kit bypass all the problems that could be lurking at the front of the car so I can focus on the rear?
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1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=

Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=

Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat.

[BonTonRoulet]

12.2 volts is a dead battery. A "hot" battery is 12.68 or better. Yes. 0.48 volts on a 12 volt battery is a big deal. Try a better battery.
Edit: your post above wasn't visible when I posted. Remove the "hot start" stuff see what happens.
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[matthew henricks]

[BarryL]

[matthew henricks]

[BonTonRoulet]

A worn starter bushing gave me the occasional no start condition recently; I'm 12 volt system running a 6 volt starter and 6 volt solenoid in a 67 RGB transmission. That means the big shaft of the starter in a small hole in the transmission requires the very very thin bushing.

So here is something to consider if you are thinking the starter bushing: the rear of the starter armature shaft runs in a bronze bushing. IF the bushing in the bell housing is worn out then you can bet the bushing on the other end of the starter is probably worn as well, quite possibly worn to the point a new bushing up front won't resolve your issue .

What I'd try next: Gently rock your bus fwd and back in 2nd gear then jump in and try to start it as usual.
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[Eric&Barb]

To be clear, the standard unsupported VW starter has two Oilite bushings. One installed into the transaxle supports the rear of the starter shaft. Second one is in the front of the starter (Front as in closer to the front bumper). If either bushing is worn the armature shaft will shift over to the side and the windings on the armature shaft will start to rub against the field coils inside the starter body. This at first will make the starter work harder and make less torque to turn the engine and in turn will draw down the electrical system voltage even to the point that one does not have ignition spark anymore. A little later the windings insulation will wear thru and the starter will let out the magic smoke.

Oilite bushings are brass that is pressed together so as to have tiny passages in the bushing to hold oil in the material. When the bushing heats up the oil in the passages wicks out and lubricates the rear of the starter shaft of the armature.

Before installing Oilite bushings it is wise to soak them in oil to top them up.

"Oilite bushings are highly reliable and innovative industrial components that work in systems across a range of industries. These parts consist of an oil-infused porous sintered bronze material, which is why they’re known for their self-lubrication and long-lasting performance capabilities."

More here:
https://www.emersonbearing.com/oilite-bushings/
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[BarryL]

[matthew henricks]

[chrisflstf]

Sounds like there are multiple problems

Starter bushing may be bad
Starter could be bad
Poor ground where starter mates to trans - needs to be clean bare metal

Maybe pull the plugs and test for proper crank over in case motor is resisting

Are you sure flywheel teeth are good?

Do you have a remote starter switch? A sett of jumper cables and a good switch will work

I would test the starter outside the bus on the ground about 10x for proper operation

[BarryL]

[matthew henricks]

Pulled the starter again. The mount flange on the transmission was clean.

I cleaned it again anyways as well as the inside of the trans where it mounts. teeth on flywheel look good. Should as it is new.

Measured the nose of the starter at 12.50mm. Turned down a shaft to that diameter. Tested on a new bushing i have to get a feel for the fit. Stuck that into transmission bushing to feel for slop. Fit seems good. I do not think the bushing is the problem.

(How do you pull the bushing without pulling the engine?)

Here is my next step. Does this sound reasonable?


1. Remove hard start kit and install starter normal. Put dielectric grease between two. Pull coil wire so engine does not start.

2. Remove #50 wire @ solenoid. Run separate wire from solenoid direct to battery +. Pretty much bypassing everything. Test.
This means starter and transmission ground is good.

3. Pull ignition switch. Insert between step 2 to battery. Test.
This means the ignition switch is OK

4. Pull light switch. Insert between ignition switch and battery using factory short #30 wire between these to to connect. Test
This means both ignition, short #30 wire and light switch work.

5. re-install ignition switch and light switch with short #30 wire. Run separate #50 wire from solenoid to ignition switch and a separate #30 wire from battery to light switch.
This means ignition, Light switch & short #30 wire work in the cab.

6. Install factory #50 wire back into the system.
This means that wire works

7. Install factory #30 wire direct to light switch. (Bypass fuse block)
This means that wire works

8. Install factory #30 wire to fuse box. (with fuse that i have ohmed out)
This means everything works.

Somewhere in this path i will find the problem. I am going to bet it is at step #3 to #5 right now...

Thoughts?
_________________
1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=

Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=

Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat.

[Eric&Barb]

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php...t_dir=DESC

If you use the ""search forums for photo" you can find threads any image was used in that most likely have much more info on the subject.

Have you checked the front starter bushing and how the starter brushes look wearwise or even if all four were installed???
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