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VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

Hi all.

Edit: what I'm looking for is shown in drawing but for any 2wd Vanagon owners with a VW inline mounted on diesel carrier bars, how far is it from bottom of engine lid to crank pulley centre?

Hopefully, my drawing shows what I'm looking for. I assume the early and late style engine carrier bars both put the engine crank centre at same position. My apologies for posting again on this.

The image is of an AAZ most likely in a 2WD Vanagon but seems to show crank pulley bolt centre close to bottom of apron. No?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

VE7TBN


Last edited by Vanagon Nut on Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Diesel: Height position of Crank Centre to Rear Apron? Reply with quote

Diesel 2wd vans have a different tranny nose mount bracket that raises the tranny nose a lot higher than in gas vans. This causes the engine to pivot down lower at the pulley end. The diesel oil pan bottom is designed to compensate for this, making the bottom level with the ground when the block isn't level with the ground.

Here is all I have to offer right now. With a diesel pan and the engine mounted with Syncro bars and the tranny nose at Syncro tranny position the center of the crank pulley is about 16" down from the bottom of the installed engine lid.

Maybe someone with a stock 2wd diesel could take the same measurement from below like I just did. Don't need to open anything, just stick the tape measure up past the pulley until it hits the lid.

Mark
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Diesel: Height position of Crank Centre to Rear Apron? Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
Diesel 2wd vans have a different tranny nose mount bracket that raises the tranny nose a lot higher than in gas vans. This causes the engine to pivot down lower at the pulley end. The diesel oil pan bottom is designed to compensate for this, making the bottom level with the ground when the block isn't level with the ground.

Here is all I have to offer right now. With a diesel pan and the engine mounted with Syncro bars and the tranny nose at Syncro tranny position the center of the crank pulley is about 16" down from the bottom of the installed engine lid.

Maybe someone with a stock 2wd diesel could take the same measurement from below like I just did. Don't need to open anything, just stick the tape measure up past the pulley until it hits the lid.

Mark


I really appreciate that measurement Mark and thanks for supplying a measurement method. And sorry folks. My mistake. I've been staring at an exhaustless engine for so long, it didn't occur to me that there would be a muffler in the way of taking a measurement. Rolling Eyes

I'd read your comments regarding the diesel tranny nose height but had no idea about the pan design.

Theres "methods to my madness" but aside from documenting these arcane details (might help others. e.g. not everyone starts out with a diesel Vanagon as the mount platform), my main reasons for considering installing my ABA at [edit: close to] the diesel "height" is to keep a semblance of ground clearance and reduce amount of work required later on should I install a lower profile intake manifold. I'm currently giving serious consideration to making one from steel.


Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

VE7TBN
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

Other than the upward tilted diesel trans mount, wouldn't the crank center be roughly in the same place on all factory 2WD engines?
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

Neil, I temporarily owned a 90 camper with a Tiico conversion. It had a diesel pan, but an adapter plate for the transmission. It had the 83 and later carrier bars and an 091/1 transmission and mount. What I noticed was the rear of the oil pan was not the lowest point and at the front of the pan, someone installed a small allen bolt so you could completely drain the oil pan.

I could try and measure mine, but I think the information would be unhelpful for you at this point.

In this picture you can just make out the crank pulley. You can also see the custom trailer hitch I fabricated. The cross piece is covered by the rear valance and the receiver section just clears the bottom of the rear valance.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is a poor picture because it was shot upwards, but you can just make out the bottom of the crank pulley through the receiver I think. mark

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

The diesel engine mounts are a ways forward of the crank pulley. Lifting the tranny nose thus causes the pulley end of the engine to pivot down. This lowers the pulley.

Mark

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
Other than the upward tilted diesel trans mount, wouldn't the crank center be roughly in the same place on all factory 2WD engines?
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

I get that, but the distance it's altered from the other engines can't be much. I know that it would be important if one were to try and exactly recreate the stock diesel setting, but in Neil's case he's making his own carrier mounts and is using a WBX trans, which already renders moot the stock diesel position. In this case it seems like getting a stock WBX crank center measurement might be just as relevant.
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Volkswagens powered by Volkswagen
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'01 Weekender VR6 -->2.5 TDI?
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'87 300TD OM606 7mm Myna pump and HX30
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

Neil has given his reasons for wanting the info he is asking for. Why not read and accept them as his reasons.

I'm just tying to help him understand there will be variations depending on tranny nose mount type. How can you simply stipulate they will be roughly the same, unless you have measurements that show this?


Mark


Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
I get that, but the distance it's altered from the other engines can't be much. I know that it would be important if one were to try and exactly recreate the stock diesel setting, but in Neil's case he's making his own carrier mounts and is using a WBX trans, which already renders moot the stock diesel position. In this case it seems like getting a stock WBX crank center measurement might be just as relevant.
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

Mark Ward: much thanks. I'd seen those images but honestly was scanning through so many, didn't zoom in. Edited: I'm not certain of crank pulley bolt position.

Casey: sorry, yes, I'm hair splitting, being pretty "retentive" about this and yes the WBX nose mount must change things (e.g. oil pan angle) but I'm trying to get the engine itself close to the diesel height/angle. And as you say, I could even mount engine so crank centre lines up with the mark I transferred from the old WBX. And from what I've read here about variations on drain plug(s) even if i set my early style 1 drain hole oil pan level to van body, aside from leaving a little oil in it during an oil change, it shouldn't have any other ill effects. e.g. engine/tranny oiling.

I haven't measured yet but it seems that with the gas transmission, putting the ABA engine crank centre to the factory diesel position won't be that much lower than the WBX mark I transferred to the rear [edit] apron. FWIW, that WBX crank centre mark is about 5/8" above bottom of [edit] apron.

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

VE7TBN


Last edited by Vanagon Nut on Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

When I say valance, I am referring to the sheet metal hanging below the boxed section of the rear panel.
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

I can totally respect your approach, but I'm a selfish bastard and just want you to get moving on this project. Since my own Vanagon project is stalled due to a lack of time, space and resources, I live vicariously through others. You're it--sorry.
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Volkswagens powered by Volkswagen
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender VR6 -->2.5 TDI?
Oly Bulli
'87 300TD OM606 7mm Myna pump and HX30
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
When I say valance, I am referring to the sheet metal hanging below the boxed section of the rear panel.


Ok. Thanks. Edited my posts accordingly.

Edited.

This image is of my van looking rearward at rear apron. Top of green tape mark indicates where WBX crank pulley centre was.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

VE7TBN
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
I can totally respect your approach, but I'm a selfish bastard and just want you to get moving on this project. Since my own Vanagon project is stalled due to a lack of time, space and resources, I live vicariously through others. You're it--sorry.


I, can't, handle, the, pressure.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Sorry to hear of your 'stall'. Hope you enjoy the image of my "Slate Blue" diesel carrier bar adaptor!

I am working slowly, it seems, but have no real excuse for the slow work other than consuming time with a bunch of reading.
_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

VE7TBN
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

You can't really have it both ways. With your gas nose mount you have to choose either close to the same engine angle OR close to the same engine height as in the diesel, or somewhere in between at neither the same height nor the same angle.

The diesel tranny nose is close to 3" higher, i.e. farther from the ground, than a gas tranny is. So to keep near the diesel angle you would need your engine 2-3 inches lower than a diesel does, since you tranny nose is nearly 3 inches lower.

Of course you wouldn't want to use the diesel nose mounting position because this messes up the shift linkage. Diesels have a differently curved rear shift rod to deal with the higher tranny nose position.

You may think of this as splitting hairs but not quite so since you expect to later change the engine position to a higher one after you figure out a different intake with less interference with the engine lid. You will need to factor this future desire into your exhaust system design or you may find the exhaust hits when you try to raise the engine to your new position. BTDT

Mark




Vanagon Nut wrote:
...... yes the WBX nose mount must change things (e.g. oil pan angle) but I'm trying to get the engine itself close to the diesel height/angle......
Neil.
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:19 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

Thanks a bunch Mark.

Ha! Right. Ok. The exhaust. Thank you very much for pointing that one out!

Ok. I see what you mean. I shouldn't have included the word "angle". Basically, I want to get the best ground clearance I can without risking any long term engine oiling issues, if theres any risk of that. I don't think there is.

I've taken the plunge and have started the fabrication process for a lower profile intake. It'll be made from mild and aluminized steel. FWIW, I have found wood and 1" PVC pipe and fittings quite useful for getting a good idea how to design the intake. So far, it seems I'll be making one quite similar to the one icolquhoun made. I thought I had a proper non AC PS accessory bracket but i don't think I do. The alternator pushes the intake plenum forward but that helps gain runner length. Turns out the ABA intake looks deceiving; runner length is actually about 11".

So far, the process is becoming much less daunting. Supporting the plenum properly will be important but even if this [edit: intake manifold] acts as a prototype, (starts cracking down the road), I'd think a skilled fabricator could copy it in aluminum. One challenge will be getting the injector bung depth, angle and ID finish correct. But thats not "rocket surgery".

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

VE7TBN
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

Where are you sourcing a steel intake flange for the head side of the manifold? I ask because I had to source mine all the from Bumfuq Bulgaria--seriously.
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Volkswagens powered by Volkswagen
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender VR6 -->2.5 TDI?
Oly Bulli
'87 300TD OM606 7mm Myna pump and HX30
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

Sounds crazy, but I'm making that flange. Planning to use 3" x 1/4" plate. Easy to find. Having wider 1/4' plate cut to 3.25" might be better.

Still figuring out the injector bungs. Likely use round stock, drill hole smaller than injector O ring, weld to plate, do final shape. I plan to brace each runner to plate. Yes intake will be heavier than the OEM intake but hopefully not too much so.
_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

VE7TBN
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

Thanks to your reversed fuel manifold thread, I've now settled on the idea of splitting my custom steel intake into two sections with a short run of silicone tubing in the middle. That should help reduce weight, heat soaking and vibrations...as well as make it easier to line up with the intercooler tube.
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Volkswagens powered by Volkswagen
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender VR6 -->2.5 TDI?
Oly Bulli
'87 300TD OM606 7mm Myna pump and HX30
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Inline on diesel bars. Distance: engine lid bottom to crank Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
Thanks to your reversed fuel manifold thread, I've now settled on the idea of splitting my custom steel intake into two sections with a short run of silicone tubing in the middle. That should help reduce weight, heat soaking and vibrations...as well as make it easier to line up with the intercooler tube.


You're welcome Casey.

I think a partial apology is in order. I thought I had a NON AC but PS, alternator bracket (aka ABF bracket) which locates alternator lower on engine. I don't. I have the much more common AC/PS bracket which locates the alternator closer to the engine lid. Rolling Eyes It seems an AAZ bracket might work but it doesn't allow for PS brackets which might be moot anyways as the early style diesel bar interferes with the Mk3 PS pump and I wonder how well the smaller Mk3 pump would hold up over the long term. My guess is that the Vanagon PS rack-vehicle weight, demands more of the pump than the Jetta/Golf PS rack.

It does help to have a point of reference for engine height but it seems the stock intake isn't that much higher than the alternator.

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

VE7TBN
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