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mnussbau
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Joined: August 26, 2006
Posts: 4610
Location: Central Maryland
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 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:08 pm Post subject: Stub Axle & Wheel Bearing Question |
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The left rear of my sedan has been groaning lately, especially when cold. I've also noticed that tire is wearing abnormally, the outer edge of the tire is wearing faster than the rest. I rebuilt the CV joints a couple years ago so I think they're fine. Just to make sure they weren't making the noise I swapped them left to right and the noise didn't change.
Today I jacked up the car and rocked the tire at top and bottom, then left and right. There seemed to be some movement at top and bottom. I then pulled the wheel and drum off and removed the bearing cover. Here's a video of what I found. When I pull up and down on the stub axle it clunks. When I pull side to side it's quiet.
Does this mean the bearings are bad? By the way, the stub axle came out really easily, no hammer needed, and the inner and outer spacers slid out with it.
Clunk=up and down=0 to 5 seconds
Quiet=left to right=6 to 7 seconds
Clunk=up and down again=8 seconds to end
Link
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Mike
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noslocars
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Joined: March 09, 2010
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Location: Salt Lake City
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| I had the same issue with my buddies 71 super. I replaced all the wheel bearings greased everything up real well and it tightened the stub shaft up nicely. It is OK that the inner and outer spacer came out with the stub shaft. It's also Ok that it came out easy. You will most likely have to tap it in when you install new bearings. |
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mnussbau
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:37 am Post subject: |
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So I need inner and outer bearings, 2 seals, and a large o-ring, correct? Is there any way to tell if the 3 spacers are still good?
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Mike
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gevmage
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Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| mnussbau wrote: |
| So I need inner and outer bearings, 2 seals, and a large o-ring, correct? Is there any way to tell if the 3 spacers are still good? |
I believe the spacers are all meant to be permanent parts. There are two heavy (steel) doughnuts at the ends, and the long sleeve spacer that goes between the two bearings. Those you keep.
One thing to keep in mind--the inner race of the roller bearing slides within the bearing and will often come out with the shaft. If you're replacing the roller bearing (sounds like that one's your problem) GET RID OF the old inner race, and use the new one.
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Craig Steffen
Getting my 1972 Super back on the road
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torsionbar
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Joined: December 11, 2010
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Location: earf
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| gevmage wrote: |
| mnussbau wrote: |
| So I need inner and outer bearings, 2 seals, and a large o-ring, correct? Is there any way to tell if the 3 spacers are still good? |
I believe the spacers are all meant to be permanent parts. There are two heavy (steel) doughnuts at the ends, and the long sleeve spacer that goes between the two bearings. Those you keep. |
they are meant to be. frequently though, a lazy or clueless prior mechanic has over-torqued the axle nut and deformed the spacers. instead of using a torque wrench, they just grabbed a cheater bar and a long pipe and tightened the crap out of it.... deforming the spacers in the process. if you re-use the deformed spacers, your rear wheels will have tons of play, and they'll wobble as you drive.
inspect the shoulders of the spacers, visually, and using a straight edge. they should be flat and even. if they are uneven, or have an imprint, they are trash. if they are deformed by even a fraction of a millimeter, they are trash. |
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mnussbau
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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The spacers look good. Very square edges on inner and outer spacers, while the center spacer has slight chamfers. No evidence of crushing. I ran a straight edge across all surfaces, they appear nice and flat. I can even see the VW logo stamped in the inner and outer spacers! I'll take an emery cloth to a couple of edges to clean them up a little.
There appeared to be a good amount of grease throughout. The grease was a rust color, though that may have been red bearing grease?? The outer bearing was made by FAG Germany, and there's no obvious bluing on it or the rollers anywhere. It appears to be fine, though I'll replace it anyway just to be sure. That plus I can't figure out how to get the rollers back in!
I haven't gotten the retaining ring or inner bearing out yet to look.
By the way, I've had the drums off a couple times but always tighten it using a Torque Meister with the torque wrench set to 28 lb ft (about 252 when multiplied by 9).
See anything obviously wrong?
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gevmage
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| mnussbau wrote: |
There appeared to be a good amount of grease throughout. The grease was a rust color, though that may have been red bearing grease??
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Your photos look exactly the way my bearing assemblies looked like when I took them apart. So I think that's the color that the bearing grease ends up after many many years.
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The outer bearing was made by FAG Germany,
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Yup, those are the good ones.
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| It appears to be fine, though I'll replace it anyway just to be sure. That plus I can't figure out how to get the rollers back in! |
It's possible that the inner (ball) bearing is the bad one.
Yeah, the old-style carriers are kind of a pain. The good news is that new ones come with the rollers in a metal cage that's much easier to deal with.
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| I haven't gotten the retaining ring or inner bearing out yet to look. |
Right. Remember the ball bearing comes out to the inside (toward the transmission) AFTER you've removed the big circlip. You have to get the long sleeve out of the middle and some of the grease out, so that you can tap the bearings out with a punch sticking through the body.
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| See anything obviously wrong? |
Nope. Looks good.
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Craig Steffen
Getting my 1972 Super back on the road
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mnussbau
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Here's the stub axle. I'm wondering if there's too much wear at the top where the outer spacer rides. There's a tiny bit of play between the two.
I figured out how to get the bearing back together. The plastic roller holder goes in first, empty, then the rollers can be slipped in one by one. Piece of cake! Here's the inside of the inner race--again, is it worn out?
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mnussbau
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Craig, thanks very much for the replies, that's encouraging. I've already cleaned out the axle housing and I do see the notches where I'll be able to pound out that inner bearing as soon as I get a pair of snap-ring pliers for the retainer.
Somewhere I read the outer roller bearing takes the radial (up and down) loads, while the inner ball bearing takes the axial (cornering) loads. That would make sense since I'm mostly hearing noises going around corners. Keeping my fingers crossed!
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noslocars
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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If it was me I would replace all the bearings on both sides of the car with good German ones and put new seals on. Your stub axles look good to me and they are almost bullett proof unless you have a bearing seize on it. Here is what my buddies looked like when I pulled it apart
The bearings were actually sideways in it. The stub axle was still good. Here is the layout of new bearings and spacers
I installed the new bearings and it was nice and tight after. It wobbled like crazy before. Good Luck |
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mnussbau
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| noslocars wrote: |
Here is what my buddies looked like when I pulled it apart
The bearings were actually sideways in it. |
 Blech! Must have sounded awful.
| noslocars wrote: |
| If it was me I would replace all the bearings on both sides of the car with good German ones and put new seals on. |
That's an excellent idea...the other side can't be far behind.
| noslocars wrote: |
| Your stub axles look good to me and they are almost bullett proof unless you have a bearing seize on it. |
Even at the rusty section at the top? Is emery cloth enough to take that out? Or a dremel buffing wheel?
| noslocars wrote: |
| I installed the new bearings and it was nice and tight after. It wobbled like crazy before. Good Luck |
Glad to hear that. Thanks!
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noslocars
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| it did sound awful. I think emery cloth should take care of the rough spot on your axle. Use good quality grease and don't skimp on it and it will be like brand new. |
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gevmage
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Until you have it all back together with new bearings and can see what it feels like, I wouldn't worry about the stub axle. The spacers are supposed to be a precision fit axially, but not around the sub shaft. The bearings are what hold the stub shaft tightly.
That stub shaft looks pretty consistent with the one I took out. Unless there are deep gouges in it (which I would guess not given that the grease looks normal) it looks consistent with just a little baked-on crud.
Now that you've re-assembled the bearing, you can check the axial wear by putting the inner race in and and moving it from side to side (towards the rim). If it has significant movement, then that's probably the bearing that's bad. If not, then you'll probably find the problem when you get the ball bearing out.
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Craig Steffen
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mnussbau
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| noslocars wrote: |
| it did sound awful. I think emery cloth should take care of the rough spot on your axle. Use good quality grease and don't skimp on it and it will be like brand new. |
Ok, adding emery cloth to my shopping list.
Dumb question, perhaps...after 25 years of air cooled VWs my small tub of wheel bearing grease is almost empty.  Do I NEED to use drum brake grease, or can I go ahead and spring for the semi- or full-synthetic disc brake type?
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mnussbau
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| gevmage wrote: |
| Until you have it all back together with new bearings and can see what it feels like, I wouldn't worry about the stub axle. The spacers are supposed to be a precision fit axially, but not around the sub shaft. The bearings are what hold the stub shaft tightly. |
Ok, sounds good.
| gevmage wrote: |
| That stub shaft looks pretty consistent with the one I took out. Unless there are deep gouges in it (which I would guess not given that the grease looks normal) it looks consistent with just a little baked-on crud. |
Yeah, the stub shaft looks pretty good other than the surface issue. There's a minor gouge where the inner axle seal rides, probably from a previous attempt to remove it. Any issue with that? Should I attempt to fill it or smooth it out or just leave it be?
| gevmage wrote: |
| Now that you've re-assembled the bearing, you can check the axial wear by putting the inner race in and and moving it from side to side (towards the rim). If it has significant movement, then that's probably the bearing that's bad. If not, then you'll probably find the problem when you get the ball bearing out. |
No significant movement, the bearing feels tight.
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noslocars
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| I used Full synthetic mobil one grease. Others here on the samba might have differing opinions though. |
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gevmage
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| mnussbau wrote: |
| Dumb question, perhaps...after 25 years of air cooled VWs my small tub of wheel bearing grease is almost empty. Do I NEED to use drum brake grease, or can I go ahead and spring for the semi- or full-synthetic disc brake type? |
The only thing I've heard about that is to not mix grease types. That is, it's probably best to clean all the old grease out and fill with new, and fill it all from the same (or identical) cans.
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Craig Steffen
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mnussbau
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Sounds reasonable. Adding grease to my list...
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mnussbau
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Here's the inner bearing. I don't see much grease there.
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gevmage
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| mnussbau wrote: |
| Here's the inner bearing. I don't see much grease there. |
Ew. No, that's looking pretty dry, although I don't see ground-up blue steel powder.
If that's the bearing with the problem, you should be able to tell by feel. Turn the inner race while pushing and pulling it and out, up and down. If it's not smooth then that bearing's your problem.
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Craig Steffen
Getting my 1972 Super back on the road
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