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Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber?
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pullstart
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? Reply with quote

My AA meeting intro:

Hi... I'm Kevin... I have combo lift spindles.

That pretty much sums it up, I'm sure. I've tried to shim my link pins every which way, and I figured out today that my trailing arms are just bending due to the built in camber in my spindles. No matter what, I have 4° negative camber.

Now, my issue. I've tried a few different toe settings, and the car just likes to wander at random. I've gone from 1/8" toe out to 1/8" toe in with no difference. I've got about 5° positive caster. Would increasing or decreasing the caster help with the wandering? Having 2.25" longer trailing arms, I'm wondering if a shim kit would help me... or if the shims would be too much considering they're built for stock trailing arms. I'm considering if caster adjustment would help cutting the upper tubes and extending/shortening as needed to achieve my caster.

My argument to myself: I know that caster, camber and toe work together to keep it all straight and turning when it's supposed to. If camber is a constant, how true can I stay to stock VW alignment specs when that's off?

I know how to read and adjust this... but like I say my camber's off... does that drive everything else wonky?
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4 seater Appletree buggy, road legal with 002 IRS, 3x3 Appletree kit, 6" over Dan's beam with 10" towers and Fox 2.0 shocks, '00 Subaru EJ25 with KEP stage 3 clutch and KEP adapter plate.

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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? Reply with quote

You SHOULD have Positive 6-8° caster at the beam (farther forward at the bottom than at the top) for an offroad buggy. That may be part of your issue. The arms and spindles are arranged for that, NOT -4°. My "Without Guesswork" calls for link pin caster at the wheel to be -3° 20' to -3° 40'.

If you get the front straightened out and it still is sketchy, it may be something in the back that's out of kilter.

This image shows caster - Postive on top, negative on the bottom.

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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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pullstart
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? Reply with quote

Thanks Dusty,

I'll try to shim the bottom of the beam forward a bit more to get closer to 7° instead of the 5° I have, and see about checking rear specs too. It's very possible that the rear has some toe issue still along with the positive camber.
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my build page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662104&start=0
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? Reply with quote

It may take a fair amount of shims to get from -4° to +6°. That's a total of 10°.
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.
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overdrive
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? Reply with quote

dustymojave wrote:
It may take a fair amount of shims to get from -4° to +6°. That's a total of 10°.


Shims on a link beam have nothing to do camber, That's built in the spindles.

shims are far distance between grub screws.. Arms so on. You should search link pin shims to set them up right.
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pullstart
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:42 am    Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? Reply with quote

I've got a lot of mumbo jumbo in the first post.. maybe this is a bit of a mixup. I'm at 5° positive caster currently, not too far from the 6-8° that Richard mentioned in the first response. I've got -4° camber.

I'll keep y'all updated on any progress! I've got to get my rear cage built before I do too much more driving/thrashing right now. My oil pan caught a whoop in the trails the other night and ate dirt.
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my build page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662104&start=0
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It's a play thing
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? Reply with quote

I agree, check the rear. that was the case with our rail. cheap fix with a die grinder and alittle time.
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? Reply with quote

pullstart wrote:
I've got a lot of mumbo jumbo in the first post.. maybe this is a bit of a mixup. I'm at 5° positive caster currently, not too far from the 6-8° that Richard mentioned in the first response. I've got -4° camber.



OK, that info above may help others, so we'll just leave it there.

The shims I referred to were CASTER shims. They're crescent shaped extruded aluminum shims to be inserted behind the beam tube, upper or lower, to push out the top or the bottom as needed to achieve the caster angle desired.

+5° caster is actually more than the factory calls for which is as I said before:
Quote:
My "Without Guesswork" calls for link pin caster at the wheel to be -3° 20' to -3° 40'.


So you should be OK caster-wise.

But for offroad I find +6-+8° caster at the beam is good for stable steering without too much increase in difficulty to steer the car. The irregular bumps of offroading make for a little more challenge to keeping a car straight


pullstart wrote:
I'll keep y'all updated on any progress! I've got to get my rear cage built before I do too much more driving/thrashing right now. My oil pan caught a whoop in the trails the other night and ate dirt.


I consider proper skidplates to be very high on the priority list for a car to be used off the pavement. At the Sand Sports Super show the other day I saw several cars on display with "skid plates" that did absolutely NOTHING to protect the bottom of the car. They were there only for looks. They were as functional as hood ornaments. To me a skid plate there for looks that won't protect the car looks pretty stupid. I was pleased to see one VERY EXPENSIVE Baja Bug had a front skid plate which wrapped under the beam. Then I saw that the skidplate was tight against the bottom of the beam tube so that if it contacts a rock the rock will damage the beam tube just as if the skidplate were not there. Thus that pretty anodized skidplate is again, a hood ornament.
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.
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pullstart
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? Reply with quote

dustymojave wrote:
I consider proper skidplates to be very high on the priority list for a car to be used off the pavement. At the Sand Sports Super show the other day I saw several cars on display with "skid plates" that did absolutely NOTHING to protect the bottom of the car. They were there only for looks. They were as functional as hood ornaments. To me a skid plate there for looks that won't protect the car looks pretty stupid. I was pleased to see one VERY EXPENSIVE Baja Bug had a front skid plate which wrapped under the beam. Then I saw that the skidplate was tight against the bottom of the beam tube so that if it contacts a rock the rock will damage the beam tube just as if the skidplate were not there. Thus that pretty anodized skidplate is again, a hood ornament.


I do respect your constant push for anyone on this forum with off pavement tendencies to have a skid plate. It's probably the cheapest insurance anyone can get.

I've got 1-1/2" tubing that I plan to wrap from the torsion tube back, to the rear of the engine cage. How much lower than the oil pan, exhaust tubing, oil filters, etc. should the bottom of the tube be that I attach the skid plate to? I was thinking about 1" of clearance would be adequate... what say you?
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4 seater Appletree buggy, road legal with 002 IRS, 3x3 Appletree kit, 6" over Dan's beam with 10" towers and Fox 2.0 shocks, '00 Subaru EJ25 with KEP stage 3 clutch and KEP adapter plate.

my build page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662104&start=0
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:02 am    Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? Reply with quote

I like the bumper cage tubes to be at least flush at their tops with the bottom of the case, but outboard of the case. Then the skidplate attached to the bottom side of the bumper tubes gives you at least 1.5" of clearance between the plate and the engine. +1" is more protection.
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.
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