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pullstart
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2016
Posts: 599
Location: Middleville, MI
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 Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:22 am Post subject: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? |
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My AA meeting intro:
Hi... I'm Kevin... I have combo lift spindles.
That pretty much sums it up, I'm sure. I've tried to shim my link pins every which way, and I figured out today that my trailing arms are just bending due to the built in camber in my spindles. No matter what, I have 4° negative camber.
Now, my issue. I've tried a few different toe settings, and the car just likes to wander at random. I've gone from 1/8" toe out to 1/8" toe in with no difference. I've got about 5° positive caster. Would increasing or decreasing the caster help with the wandering? Having 2.25" longer trailing arms, I'm wondering if a shim kit would help me... or if the shims would be too much considering they're built for stock trailing arms. I'm considering if caster adjustment would help cutting the upper tubes and extending/shortening as needed to achieve my caster.
My argument to myself: I know that caster, camber and toe work together to keep it all straight and turning when it's supposed to. If camber is a constant, how true can I stay to stock VW alignment specs when that's off?
I know how to read and adjust this... but like I say my camber's off... does that drive everything else wonky?
_________________
4 seater Appletree buggy, road legal with 002 IRS, 3x3 Appletree kit, 6" over Dan's beam with 10" towers and Fox 2.0 shocks, '00 Subaru EJ25 with KEP stage 3 clutch and KEP adapter plate.
my build page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662104&start=0 |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5820
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? |
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You SHOULD have Positive 6-8° caster at the beam (farther forward at the bottom than at the top) for an offroad buggy. That may be part of your issue. The arms and spindles are arranged for that, NOT -4°. My "Without Guesswork" calls for link pin caster at the wheel to be -3° 20' to -3° 40'.
If you get the front straightened out and it still is sketchy, it may be something in the back that's out of kilter.
This image shows caster - Postive on top, negative on the bottom.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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pullstart
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2016
Posts: 599
Location: Middleville, MI
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? |
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Thanks Dusty,
I'll try to shim the bottom of the beam forward a bit more to get closer to 7° instead of the 5° I have, and see about checking rear specs too. It's very possible that the rear has some toe issue still along with the positive camber.
_________________
4 seater Appletree buggy, road legal with 002 IRS, 3x3 Appletree kit, 6" over Dan's beam with 10" towers and Fox 2.0 shocks, '00 Subaru EJ25 with KEP stage 3 clutch and KEP adapter plate.
my build page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662104&start=0 |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5820
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? |
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It may take a fair amount of shims to get from -4° to +6°. That's a total of 10°.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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overdrive
Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2016
Posts: 76
Location: Not Sure
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
| It may take a fair amount of shims to get from -4° to +6°. That's a total of 10°. |
Shims on a link beam have nothing to do camber, That's built in the spindles.
shims are far distance between grub screws.. Arms so on. You should search link pin shims to set them up right. |
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pullstart
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2016
Posts: 599
Location: Middleville, MI
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:42 am Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? |
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I've got a lot of mumbo jumbo in the first post.. maybe this is a bit of a mixup. I'm at 5° positive caster currently, not too far from the 6-8° that Richard mentioned in the first response. I've got -4° camber.
I'll keep y'all updated on any progress! I've got to get my rear cage built before I do too much more driving/thrashing right now. My oil pan caught a whoop in the trails the other night and ate dirt.
_________________
4 seater Appletree buggy, road legal with 002 IRS, 3x3 Appletree kit, 6" over Dan's beam with 10" towers and Fox 2.0 shocks, '00 Subaru EJ25 with KEP stage 3 clutch and KEP adapter plate.
my build page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662104&start=0 |
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It's a play thing
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2009
Posts: 575
Location: Stagecoach, Nevada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? |
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I agree, check the rear. that was the case with our rail. cheap fix with a die grinder and alittle time.
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It's not the size of your shop, it's what comes out of it that counts.
I've been playing with my thing ever since I got it... |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5820
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? |
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| pullstart wrote: |
I've got a lot of mumbo jumbo in the first post.. maybe this is a bit of a mixup. I'm at 5° positive caster currently, not too far from the 6-8° that Richard mentioned in the first response. I've got -4° camber.
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OK, that info above may help others, so we'll just leave it there.
The shims I referred to were CASTER shims. They're crescent shaped extruded aluminum shims to be inserted behind the beam tube, upper or lower, to push out the top or the bottom as needed to achieve the caster angle desired.
+5° caster is actually more than the factory calls for which is as I said before:
| Quote: |
| My "Without Guesswork" calls for link pin caster at the wheel to be -3° 20' to -3° 40'. |
So you should be OK caster-wise.
But for offroad I find +6-+8° caster at the beam is good for stable steering without too much increase in difficulty to steer the car. The irregular bumps of offroading make for a little more challenge to keeping a car straight
| pullstart wrote: |
| I'll keep y'all updated on any progress! I've got to get my rear cage built before I do too much more driving/thrashing right now. My oil pan caught a whoop in the trails the other night and ate dirt. |
I consider proper skidplates to be very high on the priority list for a car to be used off the pavement. At the Sand Sports Super show the other day I saw several cars on display with "skid plates" that did absolutely NOTHING to protect the bottom of the car. They were there only for looks. They were as functional as hood ornaments. To me a skid plate there for looks that won't protect the car looks pretty stupid. I was pleased to see one VERY EXPENSIVE Baja Bug had a front skid plate which wrapped under the beam. Then I saw that the skidplate was tight against the bottom of the beam tube so that if it contacts a rock the rock will damage the beam tube just as if the skidplate were not there. Thus that pretty anodized skidplate is again, a hood ornament.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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pullstart
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2016
Posts: 599
Location: Middleville, MI
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
| I consider proper skidplates to be very high on the priority list for a car to be used off the pavement. At the Sand Sports Super show the other day I saw several cars on display with "skid plates" that did absolutely NOTHING to protect the bottom of the car. They were there only for looks. They were as functional as hood ornaments. To me a skid plate there for looks that won't protect the car looks pretty stupid. I was pleased to see one VERY EXPENSIVE Baja Bug had a front skid plate which wrapped under the beam. Then I saw that the skidplate was tight against the bottom of the beam tube so that if it contacts a rock the rock will damage the beam tube just as if the skidplate were not there. Thus that pretty anodized skidplate is again, a hood ornament. |
I do respect your constant push for anyone on this forum with off pavement tendencies to have a skid plate. It's probably the cheapest insurance anyone can get.
I've got 1-1/2" tubing that I plan to wrap from the torsion tube back, to the rear of the engine cage. How much lower than the oil pan, exhaust tubing, oil filters, etc. should the bottom of the tube be that I attach the skid plate to? I was thinking about 1" of clearance would be adequate... what say you?
_________________
4 seater Appletree buggy, road legal with 002 IRS, 3x3 Appletree kit, 6" over Dan's beam with 10" towers and Fox 2.0 shocks, '00 Subaru EJ25 with KEP stage 3 clutch and KEP adapter plate.
my build page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662104&start=0 |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5820
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:02 am Post subject: Re: Caster and Toe suggestions with -4° camber? |
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I like the bumper cage tubes to be at least flush at their tops with the bottom of the case, but outboard of the case. Then the skidplate attached to the bottom side of the bumper tubes gives you at least 1.5" of clearance between the plate and the engine. +1" is more protection.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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