Need advise on rear suspension (Sandrail)

[Ant.Tor135]

I'm looking to get some advise on my rear suspension. I purchased a sandrail a couple months ago. It has the 26-9/16 torsion bars, and I'm looking convert it to the 21-3/4. The endcap sticks out in front of the tire so I want to remove it so I can run bigger tires. The question I have is, what size torsion bar should I use? It's a 4 seater frame with a Ford 2.3 lima and an IRS transmission. It's heavier that a VW engine so I assume I need ticker torsion bars. It likes to bottom out on medium size bumps. I'm not sure if it's the struts that are the issue. It has sway-a-way struts the he said were redone not to long before I purchased it. I'd appreciate any advise.

[DHale_510]

The long torsion bars and caps are for the IRS suspension. The short torsion bars and caps [the caps are the whole spring plate] are for the swing arm suspension. Parts do not easily cross over, the spring plates are different lengths. Special spring plates are available to make the conversion.
Torsion bars are made in mm diameter increments. You likely have the stock 22mm ones. Each mm adds about 20% spring stiffness.
I suppose your "struts" are really shocks and they are not springs, They slow the travel and absorb rebounds. Stiffer springs [torsion bars] need stiffer shocks to match.
Changing tire diameter changes gearing quickly, a 10% larger tire diameter slows the engine 10%. This may be a problem, it usually is.
Changing the trailing arms is common, they are longer and wider and will change the tire clearance but will also change the leverage. Common 3x3 arms need a 3 or 4 mm torsion but will clear most any tire and wheel choice.
Nothing is as easy as we wish,
Dennis

[Ant.Tor135]

[DesertSasquatchXploration]

You can run 31inch tires with the long IRS torsion bars. I don't think a N/A pinto engine will turn any bigger or need to. What is the issue your suspension is to soft and you want bigger Tires? Or is it a turbo and you trying to pop wheelies with a four seater buggy. or your not happy with the gearing?

Ive seen 4 seat buggy's tear it up with skinny 31inch paddles no problem.


The BILSTEIN 24006347 is a great shock

Or on a budget KYB KG5529 is not bad.

Both are a Monotube design will stiffen the suspension. Over the cheap (twin tube shocks)

[Ant.Tor135]

[jsturtlebuggy]

Knowing what the buggy weighs is ideal to being to suggest correct torsion bar size.
with the extra engine weight like the suggestion of 24-26mm, me I 2ould go with the 26mm being it is a 4 seater.
Also know that the aftermarket spring plates are a 1.2in wider across the face so you end up with less travel between the stock spring plate stops. Either grind the stock spring plate stops top and pbottom or notch the spring plates to clear the stops.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960

[Ant.Tor135]

[BFB]

Upfront cost would be more but considering the time & effort in jacking with the torsion bars i think id just convert to coilovers. Be easier to change spring pressure and set a ride height you’re happy with. Since its stock IRS you wouldnt even have to go long travel , speedway motors sells coilovers that arent that expensive.
I’ve jacked with trying to keep torsion bars and using 3x3’s and it was a pain in the ass. Too soft, ride height still to low, now the ride height is too high, oh this is good… until the torsion bars set and you wish youd have left them at the too high point. And each time to have to take the torsion set up apart to adjust everything and sometimes the torsion bar comes out of the spring plate other times it come out of the inner collar.

And youd loose the torsion bar so you could run those 32’s.
I think that Lima will have plenty enough torque for them. What trans is in your buggy OP?
_________________
"how am i supposed to torque the rear wheel nut to 250 ft lbs??? " - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
Most experts aren't.

[Ant.Tor135]

[Ant.Tor135]

Alright, so I decided to go for the coilover conversion. I ran into a little problem while putting everything together. Sorry, I'm new to this so I'm learning as I go. The coil spring rubs on the tire with the coilovers. I want to run a wider stance on my rear trailing arms like someone suggested before. I found some 2x2 rear trailing arms for sale nearby. I was thinking of going 3x3 but I don't think it will fit in my trailer with the 3x3 and offroad tires it has on. I was just wondering what axles I would have to run for the 2x2? Someone posted a picture on a separate conversation of axle sizes for different size trailing arms by DuneBuggyWarehouse. Unfortunately the 2x2 is not listed. Someone else was asking if the can use the type 2 cv axles from a bus with a 2x2, but it wasn't a clear answer. Can I use the type 2 axles on my type 1 transmission? Will that be long enough or do I have to look at getting custom axles from sway-a-way?

[ORANGECRUSHer]

Changing to a rim with more offset might be an easier solution to the rubbing.

Just a warning; while it is easy to get caught up in modifying things, be careful not to changeso much that you lose sight of your intial goal and start to create new problems. Having said that, I don't practice what I preach so have at it! lol
_________________
Brian H.

OrangeCrushERBerrien Warrior-2.4L Quad4-2x3 arms-1.5Fox coilovers-094-930CVs
LAZY MARY1970 Baja 2110cc-82mm CB forged crank-AA pistons/cylinders-Grant rings-1.1 vw rockers-CB serpkit-CB chromoly PRs-CB maxiflow filter pump-wix51515 filter-Dual 44IDF-cut/turned front beam-AEM wideband-Auber CHT-Donaldson Dual PowerCore filters-custom AL air boxes

[Ant.Tor135]

[Ant.Tor135]

These are the wheels I'm running right now. I bought it with these so I'm not sure of the offset. Anybody have any problems running a bigger offset? I feel like this is as much as they would go.

[ORANGECRUSHer]

Have to look at the backside. If the back is shaped like the front then you have about three more inches to play with. Back in the day real men would cut the star out and weld it in where they wanted it. You need to measure your exact back space or offset and then start shopping and comparing. The aluminum rims I just got with my paddles seem like the offset is right up to the edge.

A larger offset can cause there to be more 'stress' on the hub bearings. Instead of the weight being supported directly under the hub, it gets moved outward and you can imagine the sideways forces trying to rip that rim away from the hub. That being said, I've seen a lot of really nice rigs with max offset doing just fine. You can see the brakebacking plate poking out the backside of the rim. If you've got swingaxle then it will exaccerbate tire wear on the outsides and probably flex the sidewall even more. You will gain a little more stability with the wider track and the steering may be less touchy depending on the width of the front end.
That is all hypothetical and your results may vary. There are guys a lot more experienced with this stuff than me.
_________________
Brian H.

OrangeCrushERBerrien Warrior-2.4L Quad4-2x3 arms-1.5Fox coilovers-094-930CVs
LAZY MARY1970 Baja 2110cc-82mm CB forged crank-AA pistons/cylinders-Grant rings-1.1 vw rockers-CB serpkit-CB chromoly PRs-CB maxiflow filter pump-wix51515 filter-Dual 44IDF-cut/turned front beam-AEM wideband-Auber CHT-Donaldson Dual PowerCore filters-custom AL air boxes

[BFB]

As far as your question on cv’s , yes you could use T2’s, you COULD use T1’s if you wanted… your limited to 17 degrees of travel with T2’s vs 25 degrees from 930’s. All depends on what you want out of it.
_________________
"how am i supposed to torque the rear wheel nut to 250 ft lbs??? " - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
Most experts aren't.

[Ant.Tor135]

[Schepp]

All this to run 1” larger paddles?
I’d sell them and get 31” paddles. Faster, cheaper, easier.

Get some new stiffer shocks and call it a day.

You’re going to be down on power with the larger paddles. Which you don’t want in the sand.

I’d focus on the engine first. Build it to run bigger tires.
Itll look cool but won’t perform like you want it to.

[Ant.Tor135]

[Schepp]

I recommend writing on paper everything that you want to do the car and decide on what is priority.
It sounds like you don’t really have a plan. This is how people’s projects don’t get finished.
Blowing a bunch of money on the suspension first without having a solid reliable power plant is not advisable.

Swaps aren’t as straight forward as they seem and have a lot of underlying costs. When was the last time you read a fully detailed write up on a T1 to anything swap with a list of all components and true cost?

Swapping trailing arms opens up the worm can even further.
Shock mounts, axles, cv’s, bearings, limit straps, coil-overs, fabrication, welding, etc.
Depending on your coilovers you could easily be in $2k+ just for the rear suspension and driveline.

What about the front?
Where does it end?

Then you still have to sort out your engine woes.

Make a plan. Seriously.

My Baja took 6 years and $10k to complete with a plan. Stock to now. Still not fully finished.

[Ant.Tor135]