No-Crank, Vanagon OXS and Battery Lights On (Solved)

[E1]

1984 Westy, 2.1 engine transplanted into an all-Digijet system.

In my opinion, the “no start” is one of the most-common Vanagon issues, if not the one sending people of little patience to other makes.

I know there’s threads about my title, but spent a lot of reading time getting a clear cause beyond throwing parts aimlessly. In the end, it seemed better to do my own troubleshooting as I normally do anyway, so here we go.

I’ve had an occasional no-start/no-crank for well over a year. Turn key, lights on, relay works, no crank at all — always and only in the morning, only after colder nights, maybe a dozen times of a hundred starts, and I only put up with it because we carry a lot of parts and wanted to unequivocally learn what it was. It always cranked within a few key turns, or at least within a few minutes.

I long thought “ignition” switch, until I swapped in both our backups temporarily and that made no difference. I never once thought “battery” as I routinely test it hot, cold, and at idle, and typically show mid- to high-13s at idle at the battery, maybe only a couple tenths of a volt when tested off the alternator itself, and always showing good resting charge. I considered ground and cable connections, and though possibly wrong it didn’t make sense to me before that it only happened when cold.

It never occurred to me to test the battery on those mornings it wouldn’t turn over the engine, foolishly, until last week, and it showed only 12.33 instead of the usual resting charge max of 12.72. All our starter battery does is start the van and nothing else, meaning, no way to drain down from other causes.

Last Friday I got a quick show of both the battery (alternator) and OSX lights come on at a stoplight, very, very faint and brief. Within an hour of driving, they were on more solidly unless above 3,800 rpm. I suspected “voltage regulator” but have never witnessed this exact condition, despite having four or so go bad on rebuilt NAPA alternators in three or so years on our prior van. In all those cases, the failure was very intermittent and showing brief voltage spikes showing in the 17 volt range each and every time, and only when watching the meter for up to a full minute.

This van, I believe, has an original alternator from late 1983, and charges both a 12 volt, 650 CCA lead acid starter battery, and a 210 amp hour AGM house battery. Never an issue in six years’ ownership and travel.

Over about fifty miles yesterday, the idiot lights stayed on longer. I tested constantly to not ruin the battery (though it’s 5), but the lights were off 90% on average. Finally, it took much more rpm to keep them off and I pulled over.

I removed the alternator at a gas station late yesterday, pulled out the regulator from my unused NAPA backup — (knowing I can’t trust it long-term and buying a couple higher-voltage regulators from that Volvo guy linked below) and installed it into our old alternator.

VOILA! Lights out with throttle blip after startup, as designed, not that this alone is a revelation...

But what IS is our battery was at 12.71 at dawn today after the absolute coldest night of all the prior no-starts, and it fired right up with no throttle or even a moment’s hesitation.

So why the big post? Because it certainly seems that our regulators can undercharge for a long period of time, with no idiot lights or other obvious signs of anything being wrong — including battery tests if not done when the discharges happen to be, Ahem, happening.

I’d presume the lights would come on if charging below a minimum voltage. But then I recall the 17 volt surges with no light, either, so concluded they don’t come on from an overcharge.

But is there a known *minimum* charge where the lights DO come on, or is that only if sending near-0 volts?

I have now concluded that a failing regulator can do so over a very long period of time, as well as create inconsistent run quality in the moments it happens. Next time I feel power loss, the first thing I’ll check is voltage at the battery when idling, or more correctly, check the resting voltage the next morning if it runs poorly at shutdown.

Hope this helps someone — and preferably when in the middle of nowhere like we typically are.

Higher-output, and even adjustable, regulators:
https://www.prancingmoose.com/AdjustableVoltage.html
_________________
If ever twice as rich, we’re gettin’ a double-wide
’84 “Westfailure”/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s

AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
The caveman’s first question to the headhunter: “Hey, you got any coffee?”

[bobbyblack]

Thanks for the write-up, E1.

Did you happen to check the brushes on the failing one? Compare lengths, or such? Just asking, as I have my original unit on a parts table, and one that is failed or the alternator failed on a 'don't trust this stuff' shelf...

Also, to note; I did get the Volvo adjustable unit, and it both brightened my headlights, and the overall operation of the engine was healthier (feeling). I don't know if Adjustable units are for everyone, but I got that kind. He also sells a fixed voltage one that plenty of us busers have had good results with. Beware, even though I read the instructions on how to set them, I still forgot to "polarize" mine, and it took an email to have him remind me that is what I needed to do...

Way to go on the shake down!



-bobby
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch

[DanHoug]

if you have an original regulator, which are great quality, and would like to re-brush it, look at this link:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=785592
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[bobbyblack]

Dan, thank you for reminding me of your topic. I read through that back when you wrote it, and never gave a dim thought of one question I had. I'll post it back over there.

Regarding my mention of polarizing a new variable voltage unit, look for the heading "Why flashing the field becomes needed" in the website:

https://www.prancingmoose.com/AdjustableVoltage.html#Warning

I always thought the website was 240turbo.com where I found my adjustable unit, but it is prancingmoose.com.

Thanks,

-bobby
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch

[kamzcab86]

[jlrftype7]

Been there- lived through various Car Makers interesting Charging Systems.
Back in the 90s, BMW used Valeo altns on a good few models. The E-36 4 cyl models were a 'special' case.
You could be undercharging so much, that you'd pull a vehicle into a shop, shut it off, and not be able to crank the starter the next time you were ready to leave the stall/lift due to the battery being too low to allow a start.
Never got a warning light, no other symptoms except you could see the under charging with a meter, so you'd know what had happened once you put a jumper box on the vehicle to get it started and measure charging voltage.
Most of us, Techs and Owners, just swapped out any Valeo Altns to Bosch units at the time. It often got you a capacity increase between the two units as well, so those extra amps of output were a welcome thing....

Fast Forward to our Vanagon. The only way I knew we had a charging issue similar to yours was with the voltage meter I installed at the dash to monitoring Charging Voltage for just this reason, under OR over charging. Voltage went nuts one day when I started the VW to leave work. Had to leave the vehicle there since I couldn't depend on it getting me home and not run the battery too flat for operation.
In that case, I replaced the whole altn since I felt it had a bearing noise on top of erratic charging, and I'd already replaced the Voltage Regulator months prior to that, with perfect charging up to this point.
Picture of our set-up- I consider this among gauges as a very important one to have besides Oil pressure or Oil Temp.

_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto

[E1]

Thanks, Bobby!

Yes, the wear on the original brushes was shocking. The two varied in length by about a fifth of an inch or so, making me wonder how it gets out of square.

We’re charging two lead acids (one an AGM), so need to see what regulators they have up to the 14.4 safe charging max for lead acid. Psyched, as I’ve only ever once seen any of our alternators sending over 14 in over eleven years, and without question the engine was much happier and both performance and mpg increased noticeably and significantly.

Then, and completely unshockingly, that regulator failed two medium-sized states later...


Dan, Thanks, and well remember that thread! If I wasn’t so many bus projects behind I’d take that on. And I’m keeping both our original regulator cores, just because.


Kamz, *unbelievable* (though not surprising) you found that spec, AWESOME!!!

That makes sense in retrospect, once in South Carolina the light(s) came on and I pulled over. The starter would barely crank and I tested the voltage drop while Sandy turned the key. BOOM, went straight to 10-even and I called it “The Idiot’s Load Test” before eventually buying a load tester… leading to a question…

While running and there’s say 13.7 volts to the battery, is the ignition voltage higher or at its static 12 volts?

Thanks!


Callan, awesome — and unwittingly, we have a similar gauge but for USB charging… and it’s wired to the house battery.

But regardless, in alternator charging it would have identified this issue just like yours!!! D’OH!!!

Really appreciate that! Jake’s (van’s) co-driver has just been briefed for down the road.


Thanks, All!!!
_________________
If ever twice as rich, we’re gettin’ a double-wide
’84 “Westfailure”/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s

AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
The caveman’s first question to the headhunter: “Hey, you got any coffee?”

[Xevin]

[E1]

Thanks, Xev.

The solar work was hired out so can’t speak to it much. Isolator, Yes, same alternator charge going to both batteries at idle.

I also had that little USB gauge installed when his doing other work made it cheap enough to just get it in.

A lead acid’s resting max is 12.72 by all accounts (and years of watching it myself), and think the AGM is the same in technically still being lead acid.

I have read endless reasons for adding a lot more house battery system bits (to go wrong) on solar builds, but have had amazingly good luck for over 4,000 days with simpler systems on two vans now.

Complications always are.
_________________
If ever twice as rich, we’re gettin’ a double-wide
’84 “Westfailure”/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s

AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
The caveman’s first question to the headhunter: “Hey, you got any coffee?”

[Xevin]

E,
I ask because I have Optima AGM red top for starter and Optima AGM Yellow top for house battery in the 76 bus.

From Optima,
“For most car batteries in use today, typical battery voltage should be in the range of about 12.6 to 12.8 volts, including OPTIMA REDTOP batteries.

However, the chemistry of some batteries can vary, so it's a good idea to consult your battery manufacturer's official documentation if you are unsure of what is considered normal voltage for your battery. OPTIMA YELLOWTOP batteries are designed for both starting and deep-cycle use, so their normal voltage range is about 13.0-13.2 volts.”

My yellow top when fully charged at 14ish volts. In 24 hours it would rest in the 12 volt range and then two days 11 volts. I was taught by a professional to disconnect the battery as it would do things to the alternator and starter battery overtime that could leave me randomly stranded. I never really thought to test house battery as the bus was new to me. Didn’t really think to test since the refrigerator worked as it should. I’ll get specific information from him later because I can’t remember
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Keep on Busin'

[E1]

Hey Brudda, not sure what the 13.0-13.2 volt range references exactly.

On “14ish volts,” that’s surface charge and available to use until it either bleeds off over hours, and/or until a load lowers it immediately, and/or until solar power stops — and all three start to apply immediately.

In other words, at full charge it can’t store more than 12.72 volts at rest — UNLESS there’s something I’m missing in Yellowtop batteries. Are they lead acid or something else?

There’s understandable confusion, and often seen here. I read posts like “my battery holds X volts” in not realizing it’s only surface charge.

On your battery going to 11 and your contact’s comment, I interpret:
— Something is draining the battery when it shouldn’t drain just by sitting (cold weather does affect this more, but IMO, that’s more about cold cranking amps than voltage draining)
— When any battery gets too low and has to be recharged, it puts a much-larger load on the alternator — and I couldn’t agree more

Know, too that alternator output voltage is almost never the same twice. The deader the battery, the more voltage it puts to it — and inversely — and that’s part of its durability challenge if charging more than a single starter battery. A good practice is to top off a house battery before a long and/or hot drive, to avert alternator demands whenever and however possible.

On our first van, the installer convinced me both batteries HAVE TO match exactly. We bought a 100aH AGM for house power (at $350) and same (another $350) for the starter battery. My gut thought it idiotic, but my non-existent second battery experience trusted the vendor (as I typically prefer to do).

While I can believe that higher-charging rate or performance probably applies with matched power going to both, we had a ton of regulators fail — though I do think that was a NAPA issue more than a system shortcoming.

Then we bought a new Bosch alternator (when they were still great), moved the second AGM to house use, and added a third and standard lead acid for the starter.

No issues whatsoever over a couple years, despite making the alternator now charge THREE batteries, and of mismatched type and size and CCA. Then that van was put out of use as you know.

The matching battery theory was totally blown for me, for over a decade now. Regardless of theory, it just isn’t true in practice and is obviously more profitable. I call BS.

Now, lead acid starter battery, single large AGM house, and not a peep of issue from early 2019 until this issue I fixed yesterday.
_________________
If ever twice as rich, we’re gettin’ a double-wide
’84 “Westfailure”/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s

AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
The caveman’s first question to the headhunter: “Hey, you got any coffee?”

[jlrftype7]

Worn Voltage Regulator, caught just before a long trip. No charging issues, just wanted to rule out state of Altn.
So glad I checked this back then…

_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto

[E1]

That’s a “carbon copy” of ours, with apologies for the punny reference.
_________________
If ever twice as rich, we’re gettin’ a double-wide
’84 “Westfailure”/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s

AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
The caveman’s first question to the headhunter: “Hey, you got any coffee?”

[jlrftype7]

[Xevin]

E, I’ll call you. I don’t think my writing skills are working well. Maybe you can articulate what I’m asking for future readers. The use of a house battery is new to me.
_________________
Keep on Busin'