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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10496
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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 Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:26 pm Post subject: Stock ABA Upright Swap; Improvements? |
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Hi all.
Edit: sorry for several title changes
Edited: Comments and ideas on improving this swap (i.e. reducing engine height) are most welcome. End edit.
My thoughts after obsessing a few days, no testing:
- Make hybrid intake, p-side of engine. IMO, if not reasonably possible, most of this is moot. Setting up MIG for AL: http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/aluminium-setup.htm (or is intake magnesium alloy?)
An SRI isn't cheap, and not certain of height. Looking online, Digifant or CIS intake runner spacing might work; cut ABA lower plenum, flip, cut/massage/weld on CIS or Digifant intake? Or use rubber boots to join? I think there's Mk2 intakes with TB on pulley end of engine. But adapting round TB to oval mount  Seems there's spots to brace intake to block. Room for dipstick
Side vent PVC valve. VR uses a side vent PCV valve. "Work around" to internal part(s) (called flame suppressor?).
Seems a lower profile oil cap is easy. (Mk1 Rabbit? Modify existing?)
Only eyeballed, but I can see engine supports (a la non rubber isolate DV bars) running from stock DV frame points. Maybe use Mk3 exhaust side bracket. Modify Mk3 intake side bracket? My Fox bracket required mods to clear the coolant inlet pipe and oil filter/cooler so modify add to that? That said, is having brackets "staggered" ok?
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AFAIK, non isolator style DV engine supports mean:
- no bar under pan
- choice of hydro mounts,
- more room for down pipes,
- allow coolant reservoir and coil moved to d-side allowing
more room on p-side.
(d-side wire covers have melted in spots likely due to heat from exhaust primaries. Mine run short down then forward to clear engine mount and carrier. If pipes went straight down, turned at ~ pan level, maybe far enough away from plastic parts? A heat shield could be mounted to new DV style carrier)
Pics don't show actual install height, but give a rough idea. I think the WBX transmission could be tweaked lower than stock more so than the older style. (linkage doesn't bind as easily/fast)
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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danfromsyr
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Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15351
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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the only thing that flows thru the intake is air, no gas.
you could make one outta a piece of plate & some pipe if you like.
no reason it can't be steel ontop of the alum, there's a gasket.
and as far as 'optimal flow characteristics' meh.. it'll flow well enough
make a round log with a T-body on the end..
if you don't like it, make another. it could even be fiberglass if that's your handiness.. (*what I did on my old CIS adapted T-IV baja engine)
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 18751
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Neil, Years ago, I played around with a mechanical CIS idea on an 8 valve 1800 gasser. Basically, I cut off the end of the intake manifold where the cold start valve was attached and TIG welded a flat plate with a hole and mounting threads to the now open end of the intake. I took a CIS throttle body and cut it in half. I mounted this half throttle body on the new flange. I made a linkage that tied both throttle bodies together.
I then made a mounting bracket that held the fuel distributor on it's side. I did some internal modifications to the fuel distributor and added an arm with linkage connected to the throttle plate linkage. When you depressed the accel pedal, the injectors would start to spray, no longer depending on air flow. With the extra air from the addtional throttle plate, the engine made a ton of power. The downside was you could flood the engine moving off from a light if you were not careful. I have it hanging on a shop wall as a reminder.
Sorry about the hijack, but the early aluminum intakes could be welded easily. So I sort of answered your question. mark |
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Captain Pike
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Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 3437
Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| rsxsr wrote: |
Neil, Years ago, I played around with a mechanical CIS idea on an 8 valve 1800 gasser. Basically, I cut off the end of the intake manifold where the cold start valve was attached and TIG welded a flat plate with a hole and mounting threads to the now open end of the intake. I took a CIS throttle body and cut it in half. I mounted this half throttle body on the new flange. I made a linkage that tied both throttle bodies together.
I then made a mounting bracket that held the fuel distributor on it's side. I did some internal modifications to the fuel distributor and added an arm with linkage connected to the throttle plate linkage. When you depressed the accel pedal, the injectors would start to spray, no longer depending on air flow. With the extra air from the addtional throttle plate, the engine made a ton of power. The downside was you could flood the engine moving off from a light if you were not careful. I have it hanging on a shop wall as a reminder.
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Holy Shit Batman___Frakin' Wow. Throttle plate to the pedal! Thats just crazy frakin awsome.
PIX OF THIS ___I beg....
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LEARN TO SELF RESCUE
59 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
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Zeitgeist 13
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Joined: March 05, 2009
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Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I'm still tryin' to wrap my mind around that concept
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'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
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Captain Pike
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Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 3437
Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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What? A filter in the face of the TB? No intake hose? Talk about "Drive by wire"
I'm runnin' CIS on my ABA. I have all new injection parts on it and this sounds like one MAD mod. Think I wanna try it.
Hijack__smyjack....I bet it would fit under the lid better.
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LEARN TO SELF RESCUE
59 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
....Bad Sneakers.... |
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xoo00oox
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Joined: February 11, 2010
Posts: 2724
Location: East Nassau, NY
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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SDS (simple digital system) has a great write up on how to build an intake.
http://www.sdsefi.com/techinta.htm
lots of other good info too. |
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10496
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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danfromsyr: I see your point. Considered making an SRI type intake manifold from steel. I even considered chopping a manifold from another make. When my back gets better, I'll see if I can't find some willing Mk2 victims or at least measure and see if the intake would fit the d-side area of engine bay. Looking again at pics of SRI's it seems the TB end is close to the alternator keeping the plenum higher than I'd like. And I think one doesn't want the runners too short. I assume this might bump peak torque higher up.
Mark: Sounds like most anything is possible. Personally I hung a blown wide open near new muffler (Chevy Belair) on my garage wall as a reminder.
This is mostly internally visualized speculation. Still. It would be cool if common bone yard parts and some time could make the ABA work with a lower lid. The engine carrier solution Andrew Libby mentioned a while back (oil pan with cutout. Run carrier under that) makes sense but was hoping to kill two birds with DV inspired engine carrier bars.
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10496
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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xoo00oox: thanks.
I recall another site explaining the "hows/whys" behind things. One was plenum shape. Seems a tapered shape is used depending on how the type of engine management used. (something to do with the "last" FI getting too much or not enough air due to air flow turbulence.... for lack of better term)
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 18751
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 9:20 am Post subject: |
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For those curious of my rig. I snapped a picture this morning. It has been hanging on a nail in my garage for 20 years plus.
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Stock ABA Upright Swap; Improvements? |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| Pics don't show actual install height, but give a rough idea. I think the WBX transmission could be tweaked lower than stock more so than the older style. (linkage doesn't bind as easily/fast) |
Syncros sit lower. What do they do to make that happen?
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Stock ABA Upright Swap; Improvements? |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| An SRI isn't cheap, and not certain of height. Looking online, Digifant or CIS intake runner spacing might work; cut ABA lower plenum, flip, cut/massage/weld on CIS or Digifant intake? Or use rubber boots to join? I think there's Mk2 intakes with TB on pulley end of engine. But adapting round TB to oval mount Seems there's spots to brace intake to block. Room for dipstick |
Forgive my stupidness, but the early 90s Digifant II / Mono-Motronic sure is simple and easy. Bet you could graft that in easy enough?
Or just yank the head for the A2 version with the intake on the pulley side. This is THE simple setup. Integrates easy too. All bolt in, too. Mix and match A2 and A3 parts for the Ueber-simple / easy parts bin setup.
But, my father has always said (of German engineering): "Why do it the easy way when the hard way works too."
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15351
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 9:38 am Post subject: |
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indeed, there's little reason to overthink an intake design..
this isn't a high dollar racecar where .001s makes or breaks the run.
here's a High power Audi intake.. from a 3b 20v engine.
and for referance an SRI intake
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| These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10496
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Stock ABA Upright Swap; Improvements? |
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| r39o wrote: |
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| Pics don't show actual install height, but give a rough idea. I think the WBX transmission could be tweaked lower than stock more so than the older style. (linkage doesn't bind as easily/fast) |
Syncros sit lower. What do they do to make that happen? |
Ah. Point taken. 
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10496
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Stock ABA Upright Swap; Improvements? |
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| r39o wrote: |
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| An SRI isn't cheap, and not certain of height. Looking online, Digifant or CIS intake runner spacing might work; cut ABA lower plenum, plenum, flip, cut/massage/weld on CIS or Digifant intake ..... |
Forgive my stupidness, but the early 90s Digifant II / Mono-Motronic sure is simple and easy. Bet you could graft that in easy enough?
Or just yank the head for the A2 version with the intake on the pulley side. This is THE simple setup. Integrates easy too. All bolt in, too. Mix and match A2 and A3 parts for the Ueber-simple / easy parts bin setup.
But, my father has always said (of German engineering): "Why do it the easy way when the hard way works too." |
I'll preface this by suggesting that people don't take my tone as argumentative or other. Just thinking things through. I appreciate the input as some others may too.
I appreciate the suggestions, but if I'm not misunderstanding or poorly informed, adapting Digifant or other to the stock ABA would keep the ABA crossflow intake. The Mono-Motronic caught my eye. Maybe the injector/throttle thing isn't too high. (though Mono-Motronic peak torque happens at lower RPM, it's also a lower value. 107 vs 122 ft-lb on ABA so not sure how useful? Also engine has less HP. Maybe useful in DD run around town to save fuel, but not so useful in loaded up Westy?) If swapping heads, wouldn't the A2 intake still be too high and interfere with engine lid? (stock 2wd)
There are other valve covers too. Possibly the Mk1 diesel could be used. Lower profile. If the only bump in engine lid was the cam gear portion, that might only interefere with ones head (Westy, sleeping) or feet.
Then again, as per your other post, if one didn't mind some ground clearance loss, dropping the drivetrain might be ok. I have read though that there is an angle parameter to stick with. If engine angled too low, is there a risk that oil pickup tube would starve?
Neil.
This guy said it was ok for me to link his images from an old public website of mine, so should be ok to do here. pic of his (A2?) 15* install more or less showing intake relative to deck:
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10496
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| danfromsyr wrote: |
indeed, there's little reason to overthink an intake design..
this isn't a high dollar racecar where .001s makes or breaks the run.
here's a High power Audi intake.. from a 3b 20v engine.
....
and for referance an SRI intake
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Thanks for the pics danfromsyr. Hadn't seen that Audi intake while searching intake images.
I get what you're saying. i.e. the tapered plenum may only be critical on non adaptive engine management. Motronic 2.9 and 5.9 is fully adaptive so my guess is that any air flow differences (due to internal turbulence?) between runners 1/4 or 1/5 are moot as the engine management would compensate for any potential differences to amount of air supplied to a given runner. Much easier to make a straight plenum as you are likely suggesting.
Runner length is important. My understanding is that longer is better (min. 9" ?) to keep torque peak in lower RPM's. Then again, my Fraukenstein exhaust might make that aspect n/a. 
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
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