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Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:01 pm    Post subject: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

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[url=http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=483408&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=] Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+[/url]


This comes up weekly so lets condense all the facts into one thread.

Although installing a type 1 where a type 4 has been isn't the best option it can be done and work fairly well if a few critical rules are adhered to. VW did offer the 1600 as the base motor option in Europe but it's slightly different than what you just dropped out of that beetle.
To start with the body hole in the bug is much smaller and a completely different shape, the Euro 1600 tin does show up ocassionally but is super rare, the best compromise is the fiberglass reproduction of the Euro tin available from Creative car craft.
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Don't go thinking your skillz with tin snips and a pop riveter will do, the engine moves around in the opening and those jobs always end in failure. The fiberglass tin also allows the use of the original foam seal that surrounds the engine and still lets it move. Now your dunebuggy buddy likely said you don't need any tin around the engine, maybe that's so on a light buggy but now you're pushing a 2 ton bus around, major difference in cooling needs and available air. The end requirement with any air cooled bus engine installation (stock or not) is no road visible from above, road air is recycled hot air and no help at all for cooling. Once you're done it should look like this except your carb may differ(thanks for the pics Aeromech):
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So now it fits the hole, lets bolt it in........ Hmmm..... why won't the engine fully mate with the transmission?.....Because the input shaft on a transmission equipped for a type 4 is longer (the pilot bearing is deep in the crank and not in the gland nut) you have to shorten the input shaft 11mm, now's the time to stop if you plan on returning to type 4 power soon Wink The lower engine to bellhousing studs may also need to be replaced with longer ones.
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Great!, it's bolted up and the cooling tin is sealed, now you've got to come up with a rear mount....... yeah I know it hangs there OK as it is but the mounts on a bay aren't like a beetle or split bus and not designed to handle torque, if they were why did VW bother with a moustache bar? (it's not like they were in the habit of adding extra uneeded parts to thier economy cars). The Euro 1600 moustache bar is longer than the 68-71 and hangs in rubber mounts attached to brackets that bolt to the frame. The Euro bar and mounts look like this:
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A 68-71 bar looks like this and is likely all you'll find:
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The 68-71 frame has mounts welded on already (72 + buses don't):
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Here's some examples of the brackets needed to adapt it to the late frame rails:
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Another issue you may encounter with a bug motor is no holes to mount the moustache bar to the case, here's a bus case:
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An adaptor plate kit that uses to oil pump studs is available and is better than nothing although don't try drag racing with it or you'll peel the oil pump right out of the case, here's one that's been cut out to allow the use of a full flow pump cover:
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Here's a good thread on the adapter: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=463315&highlight=bar+adapter

You'll likely encounter more issues like the generator on some beetle engines not being compatible with the bus wiring, you'll have to do some detective work in the technical section and use the pertinant parts of the compatible diagrams to adapt it. The heater cables may not have the correct arms to work with the bus cables either. The beetle style with the single inner lever can be modified by carefully bending the tab 180 degrees so it faces up:
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The intake manifold will also have to be modified with a 12mm nipple below the carb to operate the vacuum boosted brakes;
[img]
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[/img]
Another important item is a doghouse shroud and oil cooler with the correct wide fan (see above pics), as previously mentioned that little engine will be working hard and need all the help it can get. While you're rounding up parts make sure you get the Hoover bit or all this work will be wasted:
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And high compression engines with lightened flywheels and chrome EMPI stuff are a definite no no. You'll also need to pay close attention to timing. Even with all these precautions you still shouldn't expect more than 30-40K miles out of that 1600 before it needs a major rebuild (much less if it's already tired and leaky), also remember a 75+ bus has higher transmission ratios that will be hard work for that 1600, keep the revs up and don't lug it.
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I think I've covered most of it, if anyone has better photos or proven information to add (no here say or myths) please add them.



Some of the threads I referenced:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=321977
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=400278
Apologies to those who I robbed photos from and didn't mention Wink
Edit: added some pics and data, thanks guys.
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Last edited by busdaddy on Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

they are still going to ask how in a seperate thread - Nice try BD.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BD, you missed the part where (if you using a bug type 1) the lower engine mounting studs need to be replaced for longer ones otherwise they won´t clear the tranny bellhousing.

I find it to be a great thread candidate for a sticky Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

El_Güero wrote:
BD, you missed the part where (if you using a bug type 1) the lower engine mounting studs need to be replaced for longer ones otherwise they won´t clear the tranny bellhousing.

I find it to be a great thread candidate for a sticky Wink



there really needs to be a sticky on this topic, because so many people ask about the conversion. but should be added to the faq.


EDIT

has been added to faq
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Last edited by bugger101 on Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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secretsubmariner
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great job BD!!
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Sawsalesman
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the 1600 in my 73 from Europe and I forgot that the tin was available in fiberglass. My rear tin is getting a bit on the punky side so buying it in fiberglass is a great option. I rarely see the rear tin available in the original steel.

BD, regarding the holes for the mustache bar, can't you also drill and tap the bosses to accept the mustache bar so you don't have to buy that adaptor?
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sawsalesman wrote:
BD, regarding the holes for the mustache bar, can't you also drill and tap the bosses to accept the mustache bar so you don't have to buy that adaptor?

If your case has them, not all do, some have none or only partial bosses for the holes. If you do have the spots by all means drill. I added the link to the drilling discussion thread in my edit.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes mine has them. Just curious if all cases could be drilled and tapped. Looks like some can and some cannot.

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an awesome thread. I can tell it was intended to be a reality check regarding putting in a Type I engine, and for me personally, it worked. Many folks probably take the path of least resistance, though parts availability can play a role too...necessity is a mother! So who knows, it may have unintended consequences! I can say that it firms my resolve to stick with a Type IV on my repair...I'm lazy after all. Smile

Perhaps someone will start offering turn-key parts for doing these conversions...not just the tins, but offering mustache bar adapters as well. Somebody ought to think about it.

A couple of items from my own research. I've realized that some opinions against using this solution may have formed from seeing things like 1600s put into '78 and '79 buses. But consider the following:

I'm pretty sure I read that the transmission ratio (for bays) was actually changed twice. I think the first change was in '74 and the second in '76, though I could be mistaken about the years it happened. Each time was a "taller" gear. One might have better luck with the earlier "late" transmission than the late "late" transmission.

Also, I think that an engine that puts out more torque might be more important than one with more horsepower in this application. Yes, they go hand in hand, but if you have limited funds to soup up the engine a little bit, for this application, increasing the stroke might help more than inceasing the bore. There are ways to obtain a moderate amount of extra stroke with limited or even no machining from what I've read. Also, selecting a cam that provides more low-end torque might help...but only up to a point without improving the pathways for air to get in and out of the engine. Lastly, those who use the singleport swear it has more torque. If I had to choose between two 1600's...???

Note that I've never personally tried this, but it was in the back of my mind and these are the things I learned in my research.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work, BD!

Now I won't need a Bentley!! Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Westy Steve wrote:
I'm pretty sure I read that the transmission ratio (for bays) was actually changed twice. I think the first change was in '74 and the second in '76, though I could be mistaken about the years it happened. Each time was a "taller" gear. One might have better luck with the earlier "late" transmission than the late "late" transmission.

You are correct, 68-73, 74-75 and 76+ all had a slightly taller 4th gear, the late Euro 1600 still uses a transmission similar to the 68-73 North American unit to match the 1600's torque curve, a 74+ bus is going to struggle on the freeway with a stock 1600 if you let the revs drop. Here's a ratio thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=469851

As for the reality check factor? My main intention was to group all the information in an easy to link to thread to answer the weekly swap question that always pops up, the type 1 vs: type 4 debate has already been beat to death in other threads. The type 4 is better for epic multistate roadtrips and although the rebuild seems pricey you'll spend the same replacing that type 1 a few times over during the life of the type 4, the type 1 is still fine for local use and small trips, longer with the right tranny.

It's up to the reader to decide if this is the route they want to take, at least we're covering what's involved in doing the swap properly so it stands a chance of lasting a while.


Of course the backyard hack artist that just wants the bus running good enough to flip will have clicked the back button partway through where I said roof flashing doesn't make good tin so there will still be the odd PO suprise waiting for unknowing new bus buyers Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fresh 1600 with 002 ready for installation into a '72

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Don't forget your T-4 foam seal.

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It was cool seeing my mustache bar. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the write up!

Honestly what I'd like to see is an engine / transmission / input shaft / bellhousing / flywheel combo table for what works, what doesn't and notes for each. That would knock about 10,000 threads on the head.
personally I'd love something like that just to see where I'm at. I don't know if I have a correct combo anymore. I mean for all intents my motor is set up to emulate a 1600, and it's coupled to an early style 002, but previously it had an 1800 type 4 on it. The input shaft hasn't been tampered with but it may have been substituted.
The 002 was a substitute for a 021? automatic. the sort that has the switch on the accelerator pedal. Still using the same shift rod so it sits forward. Honestly I don't know where I'm at anymore and trying to work it out from hundreds of dissociated threads is confusing.
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VWsArent4Hippies
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some brackets I made to adapt the mustache bar:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VWsArent4Hippies wrote:
Here are some brackets I made to adapt the mustache bar:

Heyyyyyy!... those are nice!

That's what I'm talking about, there's a way to do this as a quickie hack and a way to do it the right way, those rock.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VWsArent4Hippies wrote:
Here are some brackets I made to adapt the mustache bar:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If you made more than two, PM me. You oughta sell those...they look good.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, but I only made that one set for a customer's bus and didn't make patterns or anything. I wouldn't feel comfortable making anymore without mocking it up on a bus and making patterns off of them
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:02 pm    Post subject: u Reply with quote

Nice Bus Daddy. Lets see if it helps. Lots of good info here.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work everyone. I can see a few folks using this....
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was looking around the VW heritage site recently and they seem to have a fairly comprehensive inventory of engine tin. Great write-up, BD. It'd be nice if some type 1 engine folk who've built various combos could chip in with what works and what doesn't - I've seen some lovely work that Aeromech has done with extra coolers and stuff.
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