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Show me your original 1961 engines
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beetleman217
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:42 am    Post subject: Show me your original 1961 engines Reply with quote

The engine on my 61 is not the original. In fact, I have no idea what year my engine is. I think it's a 40 HP though. Can someone please tell me more about my engine?

Also, how does a 61 engine look like (pics please)? And how many HP does it have?

Here is my engine. The 6V starter motor was nearing its end, so I changed it to 12V this weekend. I had to swap the flywheel to the bigger one and grind the tranny case for it to fit.

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pathwayrev
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my engine just after bolting back to the chassis. It's a '62 (40 hp) that is original except for one head. I converted it to 12v and to fresh air heating. Yours has also been converted to fresh air. Your distributor and fuel pump are different but I don't know if those changed from '61 to '62. Anyway, FWIW, here it is:
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beetleman217
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine looks so ratty next to yours... arrrrghh!!!
How do you know of the fresh air conversion? Which parts have been changed?
Thanks
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zundapp
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While pathwayrev's engine is nice, there's not a lot of '61 going on there.
It's got later carb, air cleaner, fan shroud, coil, regulator, rear tin, heat exchangers, exhaust, distributor.

Here's a really crusty but original 40hp '61 engine.

Note the lack of breather tube (although that may have started in 61). No fuel trap on the vac line. No fresh air hoses from the fan shroud. It is missing the rear tin though.
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Here are the stale air heater boxes from below.

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pathwayrev
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My original stale air setup meant a round-top fan shroud like yours without the two discharge tubes on either side pointing forward. So yes, new fan shroud is req'd for the fresh air conversion. Also takes new boxes underneath and a new muffler.

The generator and voltage regulator are req'd for the 12v conversion, as is the new 12v coil. The carb is what came on the car, a Solex 28 PICT-1.

Which is to say it's not strictly a '62, hence the "FWIW."
As for the appearance, I took everything off, cleaned it up and painted it. Easy to do and made a huge difference. Mine looked a lot like yours after sitting in a barn for 30 years.
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61SNRF
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a '62 engine I found in the Gallery, very similar to a '61. Thanks go to Harris for his nice engine pictures...
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beetleman217
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow this sheds a lot of light! So fresh air comes from those tubes from the fan shroud... and must be coupled with fresh air heat exchangers.

So what year is my engine? Is it a converted 61, or a whole other later engine?
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glutamodo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The engine block? The only way to know when it was made was to go by the serial number and look it up on the chart.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/bugchassisdating.php

There's a couple of photos showing the new style 12V voltage regulators bolted to the fan shroud. In my 62, I tapped an extra hole in my generator and mounted it there. I think it looks a lot better there, and you get a solid ground connection as well. At some point I did the same on my Baja bug too.

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Here's a some factory photos you find in period literature:

Early 61, before they connected the crankase breather to the air cleaner and it has a "down pipe"

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63 fresh-air - crankcase breather but no down pipe:

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64 fresh air, crankcase breather plus a "down pipe"

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Shadd
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love an O.G. sixty one motor. Does anyone know when they stopped using the "non-ribbed" generator stand? This photo, borrowed from the gallery kind of shows one.
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potterdna
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:24 pm    Post subject: Original '61 engine Reply with quote

Cross reference the stamp on your crank case with the tech section to find out the info on your motor...
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glutamodo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shadd wrote:
I love an O.G. sixty one motor. Does anyone know when they stopped using the "non-ribbed" generator stand? This photo...[/img]


I don't know. But there appears to have been a few versions of it.

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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Show me your original 1961 engines Reply with quote

beetleman217 wrote:
The engine on my 61 is not the original. In fact, I have no idea what year my engine is. I think it's a 40 HP though. Can someone please tell me more about my engine?


Looks like a 1300/1500/1600 or bigger. What is the case part number on the low right of the engine case just below the push rod tubes??
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Shadd
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Show me your original 1961 engines Reply with quote

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Maybe its just the picture but if you look at the ends of the intake it looks to be 40hp, which have a cast end instead of a pressed steal flange. 40hp manifolds also sit perfectly horizontal on the head instead of slightly angled. But then I see the later 34 carb with no adapter visible and I'm not so sure.... One this is for sure, if it IS a forty horser its dressed in all the wrong clothes.
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glutamodo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shadd's right, that is a 1200 intake manifold.

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So since this is in Isreal, I'm sure that a late model 1200 is an entirely possible candidate, and after May 1975 they came with an SVDA distributor matched to a specific variant of the 30PICT-3 carburetor. (although the one on this engine, looks like the distributor drive gear inside the engine was installed a tooth or two off) I wonder if you have that carb/distributor on here, along with the late 1200 intake manifold, since that carb sits high enough to clear the 12V generator. The pedestal under the generator, that's actually an alternator stand, and that's an angled alternator style pushrod and think by the late 75, it would have had an alternator as well.

The only 1961 part I see on here is the front-of-car sheet metal at the firewall, it's got the hole for the stale air preheat hose in it.

It was mentioned that the flywheel was changed... hopefully this is indeed a later model block, the circa-66 and older engines had a different shape to the end of the crankshaft and flywheel.

-Andy
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beetleman217
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric&Barb, to the best of my knowledge it's a 1200.

Besides all the parts around the engine, did the 1200 engine itself change over the years? I'm asking to see if I can slowly acquire all the correct 61 parts ("clothes", according to Shadd...) and strip my engine and rebuild it as a 61.

I'm also trying to understand the air mechanism. With fresh air, air is passed from the fan through the two openings in the fan housing, through the flexible hoses into the heat exchangers. These, already heated up by the engine, warm up this air which is then passed to the heater channels and into the car's interior. Is this correct?

How does it work with stale air? How is the air that's used to cool the engine forced into the heater channels?

Andy, though your explanations and priceless pictures always answer a lot of questions, I have a few more - what does the "down pipe" do? It is the pipe that goes down from the oil filler neck, right? What does the crank case breather do? In the 64 engine illustration it appears the CC breather is connected to the down pipe - so whatever they are for, how did it work before both were present and connected?
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:27 am    Post subject: Re: Show me your original 1961 engines Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
What is the case part number on the low right of the engine case just below the push rod tubes??

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you find your engine serial number on this, or is like a blank replacement block? My guess it's a later model D block.

(note, I started writing this before E&B restated this same question...)

The 1200 did pick up many improvements over the years. Actually I'm somewhat surprised that some little improvements didn't alter the engine's horsepower any - it may very well have but VW still called this the 34bHP DIN engine all the until the mid 80s when the 1200 model was finally discontinued in Mexico. (And then there's the SAE 40HP rating, there are some books that list it as 41.5HP instead.)

Anyway, like I said, the only 1961 piece I see on that engine is that one piece of engine tin, the hole you see front-of-car of cylinder 3.

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After fresh air came along, this moved down to a small fitting by cylinder number 4.

Crankcase ventilation, early in 1961 there was a "down pipe" that vented the crankcase to open air. NO hose to the air cleaner. Then they got rid of the down pipe and routed the hose to the right side base of the air cleaner. Then... later in 61 they moved that hose fitting to the top half of the air cleaner on the intake/right side and it stayed there into 1962. Then they decided their original design was better and moved it back to the right side of the air cleaner. There's much more in depth discussion of that in this thread, which you've already posted to in the past I think!

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=389108

Originally on the 34bHP 1200, the cylinder heads and intake manifold had intake ports that were 32mm. This was increased to 34mm later on.
I'm pretty sure yours are all the later 34mm - you having the taller intake manifold and all.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


In mid December 1962, that was when stale air changed to fresh air.
You are fairly correct in your description of the two systems. Stale air ducts the air that cools the engine back into the car for heating. There is some manifold heating as well, as the number 1 and 3 exhausts pipes run through the heat exchangers as well, you can see it here:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Fresh air, the heat exchangers are entirely manifold heating, they get very hot and (at least on original and the good quality replacement) have fins cast around the exhuast pipe for a larger surface area to promote more heat transfer.

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Thermostats are almost always items that have been removed over the years on Bug engines. In 1961, the original thermostat operated a large ring that levered in and out against the fan shroud to block off incoming air when the engine was cold. Very early in the 1965 model year they changed this design to having flaps inside the shroud itself that were opened and closed by the thermostat.

This is the "throttle ring" style that would have been on this 1961 model when it was new:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Then they changed to flaps:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Those were some of the major changes during the "early" 34bHP 1200 era.

Internally, there were some other changes, some are: they changed the distributor drive gear a couple of times, they kept refining the cylinder heads, as the rocker arm attachment was very problematic until they finally got it right a few months into the 1965 model year.

Starting with the 1966 model year, the 1200 was no longer sold in the US but it continued on as I mentioned, into the 1980s, German production then Mexican. Starting at that time, they reset the engine serial number series to zero and moved the engine code "D" in front of it. These engines recieved upgrades along with the other engines. We don't see very many of those "D" series blocks in the US.

One change I mentioned before, the shape of the end of the crankshaft and the "step" shaped flywheel - this was when they got rid of the metal gasket between flywheel and crankshaft and replaced it with in O-ring in the flywheel.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And then they changed from 6mm to 8mm studs that hold the oil pump on:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I've read that at some point the D-block started to be machined the same size as 1300-1600 and they used special thicker-wall cylinders to fit. The old Haynes manual says that happened in 1969 but I'm not sure if that's accurate or not.

Sometime in the early 70s, the 1200 got the dual relief oil pressure system. I'm not sure if/when they changed to the 8mm head studs.
6V was still standard on the base model 1200 into the 70s in some contries but eventually it was all 12V, and eventually an alternator. There's a German brochure in the Samba archives from 1977, here's a snip from it showing the engine - it has many things that your engine has - SVDA distributor, PICT-3 carburetor on the tall 1200 manifold, alternator style fuel pump.

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-Andy
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beetleman217
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy, you're an encyclopedia!

My engine reads D1481375. You were right. Again.

Isn't the back-of-car horizontal tin also 1961? I ask because it doesn't have the hole (cylinder 4 area) for the hose from the air cleaner, like pathwayrev's engine (although his has both).

Thermostats were widely discarded in Israel due to the year-round hot weather and fear of overheating. I only see a certain plate where it should have been.

So with stale air the flow of air was significanly weaker as the flow was disrupted when cooling the engine, versus the fresh air flowing undisturbed throughout its path?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beetleman217 wrote:
Andy, you're an encyclopedia!

My engine reads D1481375. You were right. Again.

Isn't the back-of-car horizontal tin also 1961? I ask because it doesn't have the hole (cylinder 4 area) for the hose from the air cleaner, like pathwayrev's engine (although his has both).

Thermostats were widely discarded in Israel due to the year-round hot weather and fear of overheating. I only see a certain plate where it should have been.

So with stale air the flow of air was significanly weaker as the flow was disrupted when cooling the engine, versus the fresh air flowing undisturbed throughout its path?

The early heater system is called "Stale Air" because the air to be heated is being blown across the cylinder heads and barrels. If there are any exhaust leaks or oil leaks, you can get CO into passenger cabin as well as odors. If not in perfect condition it may have weaker air flow due to the many places it has to leak out air before it gets to the cabin. The system is opened and closed by a sheet metal flap assembly subject to bending, loosening and mis-alignment.
The later "Fresh Air" system is so called because the air to heat the cabin is blown across separete heat exchangers on the exhaust pipes, and is sealed to be resistant to external vapors or gas fumes. The system is opened and closed by a small port and flap which seals better and more consistantly.
And true indeed, Andy is an extra exceptional resource!
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zundapp
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beetleman217 wrote:
Andy, you're an encyclopedia!

Isn't the back-of-car horizontal tin also 1961? I ask because it doesn't have the hole (cylinder 4 area) for the hose from the air cleaner, like pathwayrev's engine (although his has both).

So with stale air the flow of air was significanly weaker as the flow was disrupted when cooling the engine, versus the fresh air flowing undisturbed throughout its path?


No, your rear tin is for fresh air. Your right, pathwayrev will need to block off the hole on the front tin.

The flow of warm air into the car will be restricted until the thermostat opens the throttle ring. Once the engine is warm and the ring is in the open position the warm air flow into the car is about the same as fresh air setups. Maybe even more so, as all the air can be forced into the car if the heater boxes are completely closed. On a fresh air system only part of the intake air gets used for heating. Maybe the fan got bigger to accommodate for this.

I know that stale air heaters work very well as long as your engine has no leaks around the heads or exhaust and all of the tin is in and put together correctly

On cold days, you will have no heat until the engine warms up. This was one of the main reasons for the change in the heater design.

Not sure if this was answered, but yes you should be able to install all the correct '61 tin on your engine. I think all you need is a stale air shroud and the rear tin. your cylinder tin is good to go. Make sure you have the air deflectors under the cylinders in place...muy importante!


Last edited by zundapp on Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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