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VWn00b
Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2011
Posts: 3
Location: California
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 Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:16 pm Post subject: Battery Discharging Issues |
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I have a 6V system that has been giving me issues about a month. Prior to November there were no issues in starting the car. I drove it around Nov 1 and went 3 weeks with it sitting in the garage. The following is the sequence of events since Thanksgiving day:
1. Day 1: Try to start the car. Little to no turn over of the crank, possibly 1/2 to 1/4 turn. Continue to try to start the car until only a 'click' 'click' sound is heard. Quit start attempt and put battery charger on battery. Voltage read across terminals is 5.9 V.
2. Day 1: Charge battery until ~6.3 volts read across the battery terminals.
3. Day 2: Attempted to start car. Same symptoms as in #1; tries to turn over and after multiple start attempts is back to the 'click' 'click' from the starter. Voltage across battery is back to 5.9 V.
4. Day 2: Charge battery until ~6.3 volts read across terminals.
5. Day 3: Unhook and clean connections of the ignition wiring system, including battery. Check ground cable strap - in good condition. Attempt to start car. Car starts without ANY hesitation or "turn over period" i.e. almost instantaneously when turning the key to the right. Let car run for 10 min. Turn car off. Start car again. Turns over a couple of times before starting but still reasonable. Let run for 10 min. Turn off car. Start car again. Turns over a few times before firing, slower start then before but fires. Let run for a couple of minutes. Shut car down. Made an adjustment to the timing - moved cylinder firing position from 10.5 deg TDC to 7.5 deg from TDC. Attempt to start vehicle. Will not start and exhibits symptoms described in #1. Put charger back on battery - voltage reads 5.9V.
6. Day 4: Charge battery until 6.3V is across terminals. Unhook charger leads from battery. Verify voltage across terminals - 6.3V
7. Day 5 (day 4+4 days): Go out to attempt to start car. Multimeter across terminals on battery reads 4.2V. Voltage verified by putting on charger (which incidentally reads ERROR when the voltage is this low).
So in recap I have had a voltage drop from 6.3V to 5.9V while the car has been in a "run state" ie actually started and running, and now a 6.3V to a 4.2V drop when it has been sitting. The drop in the run state lead me to think that it may be a generator issue however now that it has significantly dropped without attempting to be started or running leads me to believe there is a battery issue or a really bad short.
Next steps are to have the battery load tested although I don't know it can be saved at this point.
My questions are;
1. What could cause this voltage drop while in the "run state". Generator is rebuilt and less then a year old. Starter has also recently been replaced. Car ran for 6 months with no issues.
2. What could cause the voltage drop in the non run state? I would think a short could do this but I had not seen this sort of decrease in battery voltage in the previous charging times.
3. Any other thoughts?
Thanks for your replies. |
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Aynthm
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2010
Posts: 1315
Location: Beaverton, Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Check water level in bat. Bad cell. Pin hole leak in cell. I have my battery sitting in car for 6 weeks, starts fast. Car won't charge a bat. in 10 min. Has to be driven at least 45 min. to charge. |
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JerryMCarter1
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 6199
Location: N.W. Phoenix
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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1. What could cause this voltage drop while in the "run state". Generator is rebuilt and less then a year old. Starter has also recently been replaced. Car ran for 6 months with no issues.
(1a)You have some voltage that is being drained from the battery. One way to find this out is to hook up a voltage check per pic below. If you in fact have this drop start to find the circuit by removing one fuse at a time and you will find the circuit
2. What could cause the voltage drop in the non run state? I would think a short could do this but I had not seen this sort of decrease in battery voltage in the previous charging times.
(2a) This is very common with old wires and some other malfunction in the circuit – I have even seen this from a bad flasher
3. Any other thoughts?
(3a) Well , I also think your gen is not charging appropriately – You need to ( while running) put a volt ohm meter across the battery and find out what the voltage is at the battery – When the car is running this voltage measure has to be a at least 1.5 volts more that the battery to refurbish the battery from the start use and the other running use .
Jerry
_________________
Experience always triumphs over hearsay and You get to select which theory to believe |
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VWn00b
Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2011
Posts: 3
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesome diagram. I will try this, thanks for the information. |
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60ragtop
Bonneville Belt Bitch
Joined: March 13, 2006
Posts: 7801
Location: Big Wonderful WYO 82401
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Yes get your battery load tested
_________________
Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986
| tasb wrote: |
I've restored a large number too, but I don't toot my horn quite as loud.
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| sb001 wrote: |
maybe he just snapped cause his car sucked  |
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VWn00b
Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2011
Posts: 3
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I plan to get the load test tomorrow. I can't imagine why all the sudden this would be an issue though. The battery is not that old and has worked fine thus far... |
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wayne1230cars
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 2691
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:13 am Post subject: |
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Welcome to the wonderful world of 6 volt batteries. Some years ago now, TSC had their battery load testers on sale for 1/2 price. I bought one but never really thought I would use it that much. Wrong! What I very quickly learned was that a voltage reading of a battery is not an accurate way to determine the battery's ability to turn the starter over. A load test tells the true story. And yes, a battery can go bad very quickly.
There are so many variables with battery life. 1) How often and how far is car driven? 2) Is it stored in the winter? 3) Is it maintained with a trickle charger? 4) Is your charging system working properly? 5) How long was the battery sitting on the dealer's shelf before you bought it?
I have had 6 volt batteries last 6 months to 6 years. Average? 3 - 5 years. I have considered the Optima gel type battery. Problem is that my price in Canada comes in around $205 plus 13% tax. Regular 6 volt battery runs about $70. |
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1964SunRoof
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2008
Posts: 58
Location: DE, USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| VWn00b wrote: |
| I plan to get the load test tomorrow. I can't imagine why all the sudden this would be an issue though. The battery is not that old and has worked fine thus far... |
I have a 6-volt system and I have had this kind of problem many times. Well maybe not exactly, but I had so many problems starting my 64VW that I finally decided I would NOT leave the battery in the car. I don't drive it very often, but as soon as I am back home, I take the battery out and hook it up to a charger I bought that keeps it charged up automatically. One time I did as others have suggested. I looked and looked trying to find some kind of slow leak, but I never found one. I then started going through my wiring and I learned about this power tool called a DREMEL. I bought one of these and went through all my electrical connections and wire-brushed them all till shiny. I noticed that in the back there where this wire goes from the ignition key to one terminal of the regulator I guess it is, we have the stripped ends of these 2 thick wires that are simply smashed down on each other with a U of metal and a screw. This place tends to get full of this greenish crude (which also always seems to appear on the NEG terminal of the battery when I have it connected to the charger for a long time). So that place really needs to be kept cleaned up, sigh. I thought that after owning old VW Beetles as long as I have, I would have figured this out by now, but no. I still haven't figured out why, for example, like you, I will sometimes try and try to start it and it won't. Then later, try starting and it will start right up no problem. One thing you have to remember though, but you probably already know this, is that if your VW has been sitting around for a while, then the gasoline in the reservoir of the carburetor will evaporate away and so it will always take a lot of RRRrrrrRRRrrrring to just cycle the fuel pump enough to get enough gas back in the carburetor to have any chance of starting again. |
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Hammarlund
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2009
Posts: 1539
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Welcome to the Samba. It helps when people give us some inkling of their level of mechanical experience, so thanks for that.
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| So in recap I have had a voltage drop from 6.3V to 5.9V while the car has been in a "run state" ie actually started and running... |
If this is the case, the red warning light should have come on. Any post asking for help with the charging system should include all information on the state of the red light.
The red light is an important diagnostic tool. Asking people for help with a charging system problem, without including all relevant information about the red light, is like going to the doctor for a diagnosis, but not letting him check your vital signs!
So, does the red light come on when the ignition is on but the car is not being run? If this is case, it is probably working. The light should go out a few seconds after the car is started. If the light doesn't go out or comes on while the engine is running, the problem is likely (but not always) with the charging system. If the light stays out once the engine is started, the problem is likely (but not always) with the battery. It usually is just that simple.
This information, along with the meaning of the green light, is included in the Owner's Manual, and is intended to be read by all Volkswagen owners before they begin driving! So, take a few moments and read your Owner's Manual. You will find it in the Technical pull-down menu above (much obliged, Everett!).
You give voltage measurements, but I gather you are getting these from your battery charger. If you want to keep this car on the road with a minumum of headaches, you really should have a multi-meter of some kind to measure voltage.
For example, you could have quickly and easily load-tested the battery yourself without even removing it from the car! Simply take your meter and measure the voltage across the battery terminals while cranking. If it drops more than twenty percent, (1.2 volts in your case), the battery is suspect.
You could also perform the two tests described by Jerry - the drain test and the charging voltage test.
However, I think Jerry must have forgotten you are driving a six-volt car when he gave you the 1.5 volts figure. Volkswagen specified a 6.4-7.3 volt range for regulated voltage under load, which is what you get when you test the charging voltage by putting the meter across the battery terminals with the engine running. Be advised, though, that the overwhelming majority of six-volt Volkswagens will show much closer to seven volts when the charging system is working properly; if yours shows 6.4 or so, use your voltmeter to look for voltage drops, which indicate connections that need to be brightened and tightened.
My belief is that your battery is probably bad, unless you bought a premium battery such as an Interstate or an Optima. Most of the inexpensive six-volt batteries available today are garbage, even when new, even when maintained properly.
So, get a volt meter and measure the voltage across the battery terminals while trying to crank. If the voltage drops much below about 4.8 volts, you may want to try another. My advice would definitely be to go for the Optima.
If, on the other hand, your battery passes the load test, check the red light for proper operation, then go here
http://www.vw-resource.com/generator.html
and run all the tests. Remember to use the six-volt values! |
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JerryMCarter1
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 6199
Location: N.W. Phoenix
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:16 am Post subject: |
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VW noob
Quote” I plan to get the load test tomorrow. I can't imagine why all the sudden this would be an issue though. The battery is not that old and has worked fine thus far...”
I have had new batteries last a week for not reason
Just find out if the battery is draining down
Jerry
_________________
Experience always triumphs over hearsay and You get to select which theory to believe |
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