Stranded in Flagstaff, can anyone help?

[SpudlyHotPotato]

Hey Flagstaff folks, if there's anyone who can help us up here please let me know. We drove up from Phx last night and all was well ... we saw a little oil leak (uh-oh!) but we just replaced with a rebuilt 2.1 in the last six months so we figured we'd handle that when we got back to Phx. The oil level was good and we have extra oil and coolant on-hand inside the van.

Yesterday, we drove around to the grocery store and such, all good. This morning, van won't start. Lots of white smoke coming out the back and turning over only happens while being really noisy and grindy sounding (what's that!?) Looking under the engine, we see a fuel leak coming from the plastic/metal area that the Bentley manual calls the fuel ring main, at the end of the fuel distributor manifold (which I was about to replace with an aluminum one), but all the hoses are fine/newish. I guess it was about 12 degrees F here last night. Next thing you know, there's some coolant coming out somewhere too. Drips coming from the oil filter. Basically, if it can leak, it's leaking. White smoke coming out the exhaust.

We have AAA with towing but we know the Phx mechanic is closed until Monday ... is there anyone in town locally who can help? We're not really far out of town. We're just on Lake Mary Road. If any of this can be fixed up here instead of sending it back to the mechanic in Phoenix, I'd rather pay you here and be able to drive it home.

602-738-5526

Edit: 1985 camper and we replaced the 1.9 with a rebuilt 2.1 5 months ago. Actually running really awesome in Phoenix.

[climberjohn]

Note: I have NOT used this shop, but it looks good.

Go to roadhaus.com, click on Repair Shop reviews.
Looks like you have a few options in Flagstaff.

The Bus Stop
2307 E Spruce Ave
Flagstaff, Arizona 86004
Phone: 928-637-6606

-CJ
_________________
'86 Westy, 2.5 Subaru power
Know your limits. Exceed them often.

[IdahoDoug]

Chcking something, but immediately pull dipstickand see if you have strong gasoline smell. I suspect stuck injector or other leak of fuel into cylinder. Explain "smoke" on engine that is cold and unstarted - confusing.
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1993 Toyota LandCruiser, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[davevickery]

Going from a warm climate to cold and going up 7K feet really tests a van and is a good to surface issues. It will probably run normally again when you get back down.

It shouldn't be leaking coolant if just rebuilt, but that doesn't have anything to do with the non start problem I don't think. Maybe a temp sensor. If it warms up a bit today it will probably start.

Of course gas leaking isn't good but maybe it leaked before and you never noticed it?

good luck

[IdahoDoug]

I hope you guys are warm and have shelter somewhere. Keep us updated as you are able, I guess.

DougM
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1993 Toyota LandCruiser, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[0to60in6min]

it could be the coil. I once read somewhere that cold weather could be detriment to an old coil.

[IdahoDoug]

Seems like they're doing something that precludes checking Samba, but I think the "smoke" thing needs clarification. It's such an odd juxtaposition to reconcile a cold nonstarting engine with smoke that I cannot imagine what is going in, making any remote suggestions difficult.
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1993 Toyota LandCruiser, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[SpudlyHotPotato]

Thanks folks,

We are in a log cabin with others who have cars to help us get around, thank goodness this isn't last month's camping trip we took up here. That's what has me so puzzled about all this - we camped at Lake Ashurst which is Flagstaff-area just about a month ago. It was SO cold that we only stayed one night, but apparently last night here it got to around 12 degrees ... and was the hair that broke the camel's back??

We're still a bit puzzled about the white smoke issue - we don't smell burning oil and we aren't really sure if it's just ordinary steam coming out due to the really cold weather here. It was sputtering quite a lot, at first when it tried to turn over it sounded like a whirring sound, like the starter motor was spinning but it just wasn't engaging the engine. Then finally it started to turn over, but it was just making these grinding sounds!

Then when we noticed the leaks, we gave up on trying to even drive it (better to be stranded than go up in flames).

We checked the dipstick and oil was at the low mark, but it was stalling immediately when we stopped gassing it, so we couldn't really get a normal reading.

I too was wondering if this could be the coil (didn't GoWesty just create a new starter coil to try to simplify and eliminate starting problems)?

I realized after I posted this entry that we're probably really up a creek in getting local help this weekend. It's Buses by the Bridge in Havasu! We would've been there instead of here if it wasn't for a friend's 40th birthday trip ... and I whined that had something like this happened there, we would've been in the rare position of being surrounded by experts I think they're all in Havasu right now.

We need to be back at work on Tuesday, and I just don't know how involved the work is going to be. I'm really glad we have AAA with the 250-mile towing package right now. We may have to just tow to Phx on Monday.

I was really hoping it would just be a matter of "Oh replace this part and that part and those are easy to reach, and I'm in town and have them," but I think I'm just having wishful thinking. This is the third time in a year that I've been stranded on a jaunt no more than a couple hours out of town. We put in a rebuilt engine, then the main seal failed - tow back to Phx and lost that vacation. Rebuilt transmission, new clutch. New fuel pump & filter. Next on the list was a new fuel tank and everything having to do with fuel ... Such a bummer and I have friends up here who think we're insane. I'm brokenhearted because I love my van so much, and all I want it to do for me is stop breaking in the middle of trips. Bummer bummer bummer ...

[SpudlyHotPotato]

The temp sensor was something we were wanting to replace, because of seeking idle problems.

But this whirring, grinding sound is really scary and seems unrelated. Whether it's steam or smoke, it's puffing out in putt-putt-putt and only when gassed. We never have heard anything like it down in Phoenix. I just can't understand what the cold could've done to make it suddenly sound all grindy today!

We drove it in the Phoenix-Tempe area for a week straight during Christmas week with none of these issues. Honestly, the only thing we were thinking that was an issue was "the temp sensor makes the idle seek sometimes, and we have to give it gas for a bit after it has a cold start so it doesn't stall out. And we need to adjust something to make the stick shift stop popping out of 2nd and 4th gear." But neither of those issues we knew about were, we thought, any good reason why it wouldn't be road worthy for a drive to Flagstaff.

[IdahoDoug]

So I don't know if you're interested in trying to diagnose, but if so then I think answering these will help.

One of the most common misunderstandings is whether an engine started or not and this will help clarify.

Cranking - this is the starter rotating the engine and trying to cause it to ignite fuel and run on its own.

Turning over - this is an ambiguous term I've never used because an engine can be said to be turning over during cranking and also during running.

Running - engine has caught and is burning fuel and the starter is no longer being used to rotate the engine.

Your description seems to indicate the starter motor somehow was spinning without rotating the engine. Then you also indicate the engine ran, put out white smoke and would not idle on its own without gas, then died when you stopped using the gas pedal to keep it running.

Based on that, describe what happened again. Particularly of interest are the grinding sounds. During the starter cranking the engine, or after the engine was running with your help?

To me the leaks are not a big deal though the fuel leak needs to be dealt with as a safety item. But none of the leaks are likely affecting whether the engine runs or not - incidental.

Thanks, and I hope this does not sound testy. It does before I push the "post" button, but I am not at all. Just an experienced powertrain guy looking for a clear understanding for me, to help ya!!

Doug
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1993 Toyota LandCruiser, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[SpudlyHotPotato]

Thanks IdahoDoug! I don't think you sound testy at all.

I'm going to try to answer these and try again tomorrow morning to see what happens. I do see how my description was somewhat confusing.

OK so when you said, "Your description seems to indicate the starter motor somehow was spinning without rotating the engine." yes - for the first few minutes, it was just spinning without rotating the engine. It was making this whirring sound and going nowhere. This went on for awhile.

Eventually, when the gas pedal was aggressively pumped, the engine started running, but only while being helped out by the gas pedal being pumped. This was when we started hearing a grinding sound and white smoke (or steam, we're not clear yet entirely what that was since it's cold up here) was puffing out the exhaust in big bursts, it never would run smooth. And then when the gas pedal wasn't being held down, it would just stall out rather than idle.

I don't understand what could have frozen last night, but I feel like this whole issue must've been triggered by the temps last night. We drove all the way up from Phoenix, and then a few hours after getting here, everything started up just fine for us to drive over to Target, then from Target to Bookmans, then from Bookmans back to the cabin. It wasn't until the morning after this freeze that all these issues started.

And I'm personally stumped about why the grinding noise. Do fluids in these vans freeze in weather like this? I guess there are reasons why there's forums on "winterizing your van," which I never read too much because we live in Phoenix.

[Terry Kay]

<<OK so when you said, "Your description seems to indicate the starter motor somehow was spinning without rotating the engine." yes - for the first few minutes, it was just spinning without rotating the engine. It was making this whirring sound and going nowhere. This went on for awhile.

Eventually, when the gas pedal was aggressively pumped, the engine started running, but only while being helped out by the gas pedal being pumped.

This was when we started hearing a grinding sound and white smoke (or steam, we're not clear yet entirely what that was since it's cold up here) was puffing out the exhaust in big bursts, it never would run smooth. And then when the gas pedal wasn't being held down, it would just stall out rather than idle.>>

It's the L/H tail light fuse or the glove box latch is on crooked.
Man--O---Man.

The things you are listing as a problem aren't even connected--
The starter spinning & grinding has not one connection to pumping the gas pedal & white smoke --- unless your starter is burning as the bendix spring is kicking in the starter gear into the ring gear, as it's just haphazrdly catching & starting the engine as the starter is smoking, and your pumping the gas.
Not even all related at the same time to the same thing---

Or Is IT?????

I am going to wait till the truth manages to surface on this one.

It's an exhaust leak!!!
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T.K.

[IdahoDoug]

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Fast, I think.

Here's what I think happened. Your starter engaged, but the bendix gear (that's supposed to slide and engage the engine's flywheel) was probably sticking due to old grease and being cold. So, the engine did not turn over, but the electronics told the fuel injection system it was OK to start firing fuel into the unmoving cylinders. Depending on how long you did this, one or more cylinders could have gotten enough fuel to cause some compression issues (fuel won't compress). So you flooded the engine.

Then when you did get it started, the engine was trying to clear itself and had way too much fuel, so only ran when you gave it maximum air. The grinding sound I cannot account for, but suspect the sticking bendix gear might not have correctly retracted, which means it was making noise and trying to get off the flywheel.

So, wide open throttle is correct to start a flooded engine and a hammer blow may help the starter gear engage and disengage. Or direct application of heat before trying to start it such as with a heat gun for a half hour. Once you've driven it - such as starting home - the engine block will warm the starter and all will be fine as long as the engine isn't allowed to get stone cold again. When you get home, have the starter rebuilt or replaced.

That's my take. The fuel leak needs to be dealt with and/or watched. I'd have a fire extinguisher handy for the rest of the trip and be very confident on how to use it (don't open engine hatch, fire that puppy under the van to smother).

DougM
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1993 Toyota LandCruiser, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[duderanchero]

doug, whether you're right or not, you're a genius.

[westfailed]

It all started when it sat overnight in 12* temps-then leaks everywhere. What strength of antifreeze is in your coolant? Could frozen coolant cause any of this?

[RBEmerson]

IdahoDoug's scenario makes a lot of sense. [/two thumbs up]
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Lord, give me coffee to change the things I can change, and wine to accept the things I can't change.

[ftp2leta]

Doug is so right, it's called "hydro lock", somewhat unrelated AND related to your starter problem.

How to proceed, find a shop, a warm place to work on, NO WAY OUT!
Remove spark-plug, unplug the black wire to coil, crank the engine, you need someone in the back to look at the plug hole and see if something is coming out. If yes, your in trouble. Smell the plug! Look at it, report.
Fuel will somewhat evaporate, coolant not!

Info to all of you, fuel hydro lock and cold weather can kill you head gasket, trust me on this one.

That said, if the engine turn/crank over normally (plug remove/coil unplug), you have an hydro lock OR and failing head gasket... meaning you have a coolant hydro lock.

It's also time to bang that starter with a hammer... forget the little sign on the starter that says: Don't hammer me

I read again but didn't see if you have an automatic (I'm assuming yes because of the typical noisy starting of an automatic)

You need to eliminate causes

Other notes, 1983-85 have a weak/small main + wire running from the battery to the starter, first it's half the size of the later van and it's weak because it's old, look at the following picture:

Most automatic van have BAD corrosion at the stater end, this one is from an 87 van. Combine to a corroded/old ground at the front of the transmission you have very bad starting condition, add cold and it's hell.

In my case (Subaru conversion) 2 on 3 van I need a new starter and I need to replace the main +wire with 0 gauge. Less on 4 speed (????) but still.

I will follow your thread, just find a decent shop. By the way, it's -4F here (-24C) so 12 is nothing

Ho men I'm happy to be out of the VW water boxer world.
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[RBEmerson]

Uh, with hydro-locking, there's not a snowball's chance in Hades that the engine will turn. BTDT with a Kawasaki Concours motorcycle. Long story short, gas got past a float valve, into a cylinder. When I hit the starter, the noise was like someone hit the engine with a sledge hammer. And, in effect, that's just what happened. The piston came up, tried to compress the gas and it resisted. WHAM!!! One very bent piston rod and one dinged crankshaft. After that, no amount of twisting, in either direction, at the crank end would move anything.

Since this engine can be turned over, the chances it's hydro-locked aren't great. OTOH, given the number of curious leaks... I might be a little nervous about the possibility it might happen.
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Lord, give me coffee to change the things I can change, and wine to accept the things I can't change.

[IdahoDoug]

No, I don't think it hydrolocked as that is unlikely here but he also got it started - further ruling that out.

The leaks are a bummer, but not critical to getting home. I think his starting issue is an elderly starter that gave him advance warning, and that the running issue will clear after the fuel gets out of the exhaust system (may be leaking from same, actually), and breather tower and intake manifold. Then simply monitor liquids on the way home. A 30 minute drive around where you are staying would accomplish that, and establish if the guesses are correct before you set off.

Thanks for the kind words. I look forward to seeing what the OP finds.....
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1993 Toyota LandCruiser, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[Terry Kay]

Two items to check --right now & it'll be a yea or nay on the over fueling theory.

Pull the dipstick & smell it.
I know you reported that the engine was low on oil--
If the injectors were over fueling you'll smell gas on the stick--and it would show a high oil level--I am pretty sure you can discount the over fueling just from your report on a low level.

Pull a couple of easy to get to spark plugs.
Take a look at them to see if they are wet, & put your nose to them too--
If you got an overload of fuel, you'd see it & smell it right away on the wet plugs.
Get your nose to the tail pipe--You smell raw gas there?

If not--forget the gas hydro locking theory.
You have different problems.

From your description, regardless of how vauge it is, the starter sounds scewed up.

But--this may not be the problem either.

Your going to have to get somebody over there that has some idea of what's going on in real time.

The guessing game via the internet is't going to get you rolling.
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T.K.