Trouble getting turn signals to work

[hammy]

I have a '66 on a '68 pan, I believe all the wiring to be '68 and has a 10 slot fuse panel.

The tail lights are 68-70 style, and the headlights are earllier ('66) style, but with turn signals in the headlamps and shaved fenders (not a fan of it).

Also something interesting is that this 66/68 has a 914 steering column (actually installed very well), and properly operates the wipers, high beams and the turn signal lever does make the turn signal light on the dash come on.

All lights work fine except turn signals. The wiring in the front trunk is a rat's nest that I've been trying to go through, though I can't find where to look next.

I know how to read wiring diagrams, but I can't seem to figure out if the car/wiring requires the emergency flasher to be wired in/working properly. I do believe it has one but I don't think it is wired up.

Also, what does the turn signal flasher look like? I have two relays, one in small black and plastic with probably 4 or 5 prongs/terminals on it, the other is older VW, metal with maybe 6 or 7 prongs/terminals in it, and has a bent prong on the bottom to hold it down to something secure, possibly to ground it as well?

I also snagged a hazard light from a 71 or 72, will this work as a replacement?

Any help??? Confused here.

Thanks for your suggestions. - Zach

[hammy]

PS. - I did spend a while today sanding and grinding all front and tail light grounds fresh.

[glutamodo]

You need to find out which wiring you have there.

1968 had two distictly different wiring setups for the emergency flasher/turn signal system. One used the large 9-terminal (using 7 terminals on it) flasher relay and a simple e-flasher switch. The other used a more complicated e-flasher switch and a simpler flasher relay. So you really need to find out which one you have. The factory never did issued a proper wiring diagram for the later 68 setup, but I combined bits from the 68 and 70 diagrams to come up with this one

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bug_68_69_usa.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bug_68_69_usa_key.jpg

And this is the early 68 setup

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bug_68_early_usa.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bug_68_early_usa_key.jpg

There may one or two wire colors in the 68-69 diagram that I didn't get correct, but the wiring itself should be correct.

At this point it's up to you do decide which way you want to go, you probably could make either system work.

[hammy]

Thanks. I have them both printed out and will compare the two.

Any way to wire it to bypass the emergency flashers?

[glutamodo]

Oh, certainly. Although it seems many people wish to retain them when that option is mentioned. All you need to do is wire it up like the 62-65 models were. On this diagram is shown a 4-terminal flasher - well, the ground is not shown but it was there, in those days the flasher was grounded via its mounting and that is not shown here. If you look to the inset at the right of this diagram you'll see how a modern 3-terminal flasher works in its place - the kind of flasher that VW used from circa-
1971 into the late 90s, NOT the same kind of cheap US-spec "PXL" 3-terminal flasher, rather one with terminals 49,49a, and 31(ground) on it.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bug_62-65withinset.jpg

-Andy

[mrbigmax]

Since the 914 was a VW product, the 914 and late VWs share a lot. Here is the current flow diagram for a '74 914.

Circuits 41 thru 47 are the turn signal portion. E3 is the hazard switch, J1 is the relay and E2 is the turn signal switch. When you compare the two diagrams, (VW vs. 914) you see that the wire numbering is the almost the same. The only difference is that 49 (on the 914) equals "+" (on the VW.) A majority of the wire colors are the same.

In both circuits, the flasher relay gets its power from the hazard switch, through #30 with the key off & #15 with the key on.

Use the 4 prong relay with the '71/'72 hazard switch.

Just take it one wire at a time and providing all the associated parts are in working order, you should do just fine.

[hammy]

So if I don't have an hazard switch, how can I wire the turn signals to work without one? Using early 62-65 wiring?

[glutamodo]

Yes, you got it.

[ashman40]

[hammy]

[glutamodo]

VW used them (under a few different part numbers, but still interchangable) from circa 1971 to circa 1998, so that's over 25 years of junkyard cars you will find them in. Here's some you will see from such vehicles:

111 953 227D and
191 953 227A

http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111953227D

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-111-953-227-D

http://www.busdepot.com/details.jsp?partnumber=191953227AMY

http://www.busdepot.com/details.jsp?partnumber=111953227DH

In big-box auto parts stores, or FLAPS as they are sometimes called, looks for the 35 series flasher EP-35 or EF-35.

If you have an aftermarket 4-terminal US relay that has a "P" terminal instead of a "K" - that is not correct. The P flashes hot/open and the K flashes open/ground. Not the same thing at all. But if you have a German 4-terminal flasher with terminals K (or Kbl) 49, 49a and 31, that one is usable.

I must note the US style relays can be made to work, but I don't recommend them.

Now the dash arrow coming on - that bulb in the speedometer is wired sort of "ass-backwards" as are the charging and oil pressure lights. They have power to them whenever the ignition switch is ON. To make the turn signal arrow light up, all you need to do is give it a ground path. On the ORIGINAL 4-terminal flasher relay, that was done by a second set of contacts inside the flasher. After they dropped that 4-terminal flasher from almost all models, for some really odd reason it resurfaced on the 1973 Thing model, and that fact means a later style circuit diagram exists for that type of wiring and relay. Of course, this shows the e-flasher relay setup as well, but the reason I put it up is to show the 4-terminal flasher relay itself.

But they got rid of it in favor of the simpler/cheaper 3-terminal grounded Euro-spec relay in 1971-2, the main difference is that the dash arrow lights up opposite of the outside light instead of at the same time.


Oh, the way your dash arrow lights up when the turn signal is engaged means little - there is power to the dash light at all times the key is on and you merely opened a path to ground for it - the 3-terminal flasher relies on this, you actually ground that dash light through the turn signals themselves when they are not being powered by the flasher relay.

-Andy

[hammy]

[glutamodo]

Only the original VW flashers from the early 60s were grounded through their cases - and in all but the fewest cases those will be 6V. On 12V, look for a terminal 31 - 31 actually MEANS ground. If you see a 3-terminal realy with P X and L on them, NONE of those are grounds, and neither is the case. (P=Pilot, X is actually a Plus, and L means Load)

That metal bodied example I had the picture of above, you can just make out the "31" on the left hand terminal.

-Andy

PS, regarding the early 60s and VW's major screwup in not showing on their diagrams that the flasher relays used at that time were grounded via their mounting, had to be rectified by a NOTE in the service manual - however those realys were clipped or bolted down to the body.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/glutamodo/VW07/6VTurnRelayGrounds.jpg

[hammy]

[glutamodo]

Yep, just look at that photo of the Tridon EP-35 I posted before, it shows the terminal numbers on it, that's what you want.

[ashman40]