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itcgaramond
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2009
Posts: 3
Location: Boston
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 Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject: Wiring MSD ignition on Vanagon. |
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Hello all fellow Vanagon tinkerers.
I'm trying to install a MSD 6AL on my 91 Vanagon. For the life of me, I can't figure out where to install the white or the violet/green wires. I'm assuming the violet/green wires are not to be used on stock applications, and as much as I, and 2 real mechanics tried, we couldn't reach the breaker points inside the distributor to attach the white wire.
Has anyone here installed an MSD box in their Vanagon? I appreciate any help I can get.
–David |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 18748
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have my manual to look at, but you will need to use the wire that fires the coil to trigger the msd. So you don't use the violet and green wire. You will then connect the msd to the msd coil.
Basically you are using the stock ignition system as a relay to trigger the MSD box, which fires the MSD coil.
I am not familiar enough with your year's system, but you need to use some caution. The pulse that fires the coil is also what triggers the ecu to fire the injectors. You may also find that if you get it running, it may not shut off due to the alternator back feeding. Your tach may also have problems.
Ok, I am looking at the wiring. The black wire on the stock coil is power in with the key on. You can use that to power the "keyed" power on the msd box. There should be two green wires on the opposite connector of the coil. One is for the tach, the other is from the ECU and that is what fires the stock coil.
Follow this direction at your own peril. Remove both green wires and connect one to what MSD considers the points trigger input to the MSD. The other green wire goes to the tach output on the MSD box. If you are unsure which green wire is which. Try disconnecting only one. If the van starts, you have the tach wire off. If not, you have the ECU wire and that is the one you connect to fire the MSD. I think it is the white wire. Use the MSD wiring for a points ignition for all other connections, except you substitute the points for the output from the green wire from the Vanagon ECU. You can also call MSD tech support I believe for free. Good luck. If you are not using an MSD coil, don't waste your time. MSD is short for multiple spark discharge. Meaning at idle, the plug fires multiple times, which could play havoc with the fuel injection.
Good luck. mark |
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insyncro
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:12 am Post subject: |
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I have seen this done in the past.
I have also seen a few motors gernade with the MSD not wired/tuned properly. |
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VWGeorge
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Joined: July 10, 2004
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| you will need the msd 8910 tach adaptor kit with the diode, if not you injectors will fire four or five time per cumbustion cycle. |
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itcgaramond
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Joined: December 07, 2009
Posts: 3
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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Mark, sir, you've gone the extra mile for me today. Thank you for taking the time to figure this out and expose it so clearly.
I have yet to set some time aside for the installation. I will let you know what comes at the other side.
–David |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 18748
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring MSD ignition on Vanagon. |
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Update, installed a MSD 6A into a 90 WBX Digifant vanagon. The information I posted above for connecting the MSD has not changed. However, as I suspected when I posted above, the tachometer would not work using the Digifant ECU connected to the MSD or the MSD tach output.
Took a chance and added an MSD Tachometer adapter 8620 and tach is working. I believe the digifant tach is looking for a higher voltage when the stock coil field collapses than the MSD box puts out itself. |
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oceanair
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Joined: June 09, 2013
Posts: 724
Location: Victoria, BC
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring MSD ignition on Vanagon. |
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What is the advantage of this setup?
_________________
84 Vanagon Pop Top Conversion from Tin Top, 1970 Ghia - all sweet rides! Love em!
Previous: Green 72 Tin Top, White 72 Westy, Blue 64 Beetle, Yellow 71 Squareback, 2014 Jetta TDI Wagon - wish I could have them all back! |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 18748
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring MSD ignition on Vanagon. |
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On this particular van, it’s eating coils. To try and pinpoint the problem, we are adding a standalone ignition box to take the coil load off the digifant ECU.
MSD is a high power ignition. In the lower rpms, it’s multiple spark discharge or MSD. In higher rpms, it’s one spark. You can also double the size of the plug gap which gives you a better flame front. I’m sure there are some good videos of MSD displays.
Adding this system should solve the coil burning up problem. We have not been able to replicate the problem. It only does it after the van has run at highway speeds all day. We are acting on the owners experience only. |
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oceanair
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Location: Victoria, BC
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring MSD ignition on Vanagon. |
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Thanks for explaining that -- appreciated!
_________________
84 Vanagon Pop Top Conversion from Tin Top, 1970 Ghia - all sweet rides! Love em!
Previous: Green 72 Tin Top, White 72 Westy, Blue 64 Beetle, Yellow 71 Squareback, 2014 Jetta TDI Wagon - wish I could have them all back! |
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tjet
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Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3725
Location: Az
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Wiring MSD ignition on Vanagon. |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
Update, installed a MSD 6A into a 90 WBX Digifant vanagon. The information I posted above for connecting the MSD has not changed. However, as I suspected when I posted above, the tachometer would not work using the Digifant ECU connected to the MSD or the MSD tach output.
Took a chance and added an MSD Tachometer adapter 8620 and tach is working. I believe the digifant tach is looking for a higher voltage when the stock coil field collapses than the MSD box puts out itself. |
I have an MSD 6 that I would like to hook up to a Digijet. I need to take a look online to see if they have a Euro diagram example. Thanks for posting about your Digifant MSD install. |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 18748
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Wiring MSD ignition on Vanagon. |
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Digijet would be similar hookup. The difference is you'd be using the signal from the control module, which I recall is the green wire. It would connect to the white wire of the MSD.
For the ECU, you might be able to use the tach output lead for the rpm signal needed to fire the injectors.
I'm not recommending this setup. I just wanted to update my findings with the tach signal that I did not know for sure when I originally posted.
I noticed Dylan commented on burnt up engines when not configured properly. I'd be at a loss to understand that. MSD's get blamed for a lot of problems that I have not experienced ever.
A simplified explanation is the MSD box is like adding a relay to the ignition circuit. It will take the load off of your ECU with Digifant and your control module in Digijet when firing the coil. |
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tjet
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Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3725
Location: Az
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Wiring MSD ignition on Vanagon. |
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What's a digijet most similar to in the older Bosch systems? (K-Jetronic, LE- Jetronic, etc)
I'm searching for MSD installs in 80's BMW's
Thanks |
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jlrftype7
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Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 4555
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:03 am Post subject: Re: Wiring MSD ignition on Vanagon. |
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| tjet wrote: |
| What's a digijet most similar to in the older Bosch systems? (K-Jetronic, LE- Jetronic, etc) |
Shoot for 78 or '79 to '81 6 cyls You still have a Distributor, L-jet, no idle valve and do have an AUX Air Valve . 78- 83 4 cyls were K-jet until '84 with the new 318i/ E-30 for US.
. '82 and later Big Six M-30 engines and the smaller M20 , will have something closer to Digifant , with ECU controlled Spark and no Distributor[ Cap and rotor are mounted on the end of the Camshaft] but sep idle valve and ECU
'85 Big 6 cars got full Motronic, and the 528e stayed unchanged and soldered on until the Super ETA version at the end of its run in the later '80s, finally getting a newer fuel and engine management system , right before the body style was gone for the incoming E-34s of '89.
I saw more MSD installs in Mercedes-Benz models than anything else when I was starting out in the business. I think it was to replace a factory Capacitor Discharge that was expensive from MB to repair[ going way back with that one as the cars were already more than 10 years old easily when I was working on them in the later '80s.
K-jet took up more room many times due to the plumbing and larger air box system needed for the flap set-up/fuel distributor.
L-Jet became Motronic for BMW, with its various versions, leaving behind the sep. idle control module ECU with its idle valve and having spark controlled and idle controlled fully by the engine ECU.
You had plain L-Jet, could have been called AFM like VW, with the Distributor losing the points, gaining electronic ignition, but no idle valve, and had an Aux valve and A/C idle up solenoid to raise the idle when A/C was in operation.
That worked so well for most people that they didn't add goodies like MSD.
Less chance even with the next couple of years, 2 sensors, one for RPM and one for crank position correlation to the flywheel teeth providing the engine speed. Sep. box for the idle valve, and idle valve itself, gone were the need for Aux valve and any add-on solenoids.
Motronic kept the two sensors, changed the idle valve system totally, until later when BMW went to the single sensor mounted on the front of the engine, and had a spark wire pick-up sensor on 1 wire, cyl 1 I think....
I think integrating an aftermarket ignition system in any of the above was more than most people wanted to risk with their BMWs around here at least.
_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
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Last edited by jlrftype7 on Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 18748
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Wiring MSD ignition on Vanagon. |
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| tjet wrote: |
What's a digijet most similar to in the older Bosch systems? (K-Jetronic, LE- Jetronic, etc)
I'm searching for MSD installs in 80's BMW's
Thanks |
No idea, but, don't over think it. The MSD is suited for a few types of triggers. To wire and MSD you'd be looking at a "points" configuration for wiring it up.
The MSD has 2 heavy leads, the Red one is constant power and the black one is the chassis ground. Remove the two wires from your stock coil. The +wire is your key on power and is connected to the smaller "red" wire on the MSD. The -wire of your coil connects to the white wire on the MSD box. The orange and black wires go to your new MSD coil. The MSD has a tach output, but may not be suited for some tachs or rpm for the ECU. Don't hook any of the vehicle wires to the coil. Its similar, but not the same. Only the orange and black wires from the MSD should be connected to the coil.
Disclaimer, I am not affiliated with MSD nor am I 100% on the wiring. Always best to confirm with the MSD wiring.
If you have a distributor sender with 2 wires, it may be able to be adapted directly to the MSD. |
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tjet
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Posts: 3725
Location: Az
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring MSD ignition on Vanagon. |
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Thanks Mark. I have 2 old MSD 6 boxes in other cars. Both cars have carburetors and points. This will be the first time I put an MSD box in a new-fangled car with electric fuel injectors & spark shooter.
I think this was in my Motor's manual.
Pretty much summed up the electrical section on my old truck.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/media/scan0003...1399661792 |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 18748
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring MSD ignition on Vanagon. |
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Conventional coils still fire the same way they did with points. Electronic ignition is just solid state points.
Simply, when the points are closed, current flows through the mile of copper windings in the coil. When the points open, the electrical field collapses around the center and looking for a ground path, flows out the secondary circuit of the coil to the distributor and then to a spark plug. The points close and this starts all over.
The flaw is, the higher the rpms, the less saturation time there is, so your better spark is at idle. The MSD acts like a transformer in addition to acting like a relay.
Is it required? No, is it bad? I don’t believe so. As I said earlier they get a bad rap. But when wired and grounded properly are pretty reliable and it’s a hell of a spark. |
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