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reluctantartist
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Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 1929
Location: Bloomington, IN
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 Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:13 pm Post subject: Tips on removing engine and transmission |
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I am about to drop the engine and transmission so I can get at the tranny seals, engine oil seals and replace fuel/vacuum hose. ANyway does anyone have any tips for doing this? I have already removed all the connections I have to do it with a hydraulic jack that I have a wood plate attached to it from when I removed my vanagon transmission. They show wooden pallets under the engine in the Haynes. Where is the best place to support it? Any other info is also appreciated.
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1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them. |
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Hamsterben
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Joined: December 05, 2011
Posts: 238
Location: Kooskia Idaho
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| I pulled one in a junkyard with four tires because they wouldn't let me bring in my jack. Just be careful if you pull them together they are heavy and its hard to balance one one jack. |
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Mike Fisher
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Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 18046
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Better to do just the engine first, then the transmission with 1-3 Ton high lift floor jack. The engine alone is heavy enough! 3 Ton jack stands have to be at their highest notch under the forward spring plates to get the engine or engine/trans drug out from under the rear. I use 2 big/small floor jacks when doing engine/trans together. Lower it down/slide onto heavy cardboard/ plywood/carpet to drag it out.
It's a lot easier/lighter than pulling V8's Out & In! 
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69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23149
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of important details here. The very best way to do this if you are using afloor jack is alsso with a dolly to support the transmission tail. On a 411 or 412 it is much easier to remove the entire powertrain unit. first you need to find out how low your jack will go. Then whatever that height is you need a bare minimum of 18" above that...to the lowest part of the sheet metal under the bumper.
This is even more important with a four speed...but equally important with the automatic....there are drivetrain alignmnent issues with type 4's. With four speeds it will cause shifting problems is done incorrectly. With an automatic it will cause shaft wear problems internally.
The jack position best goes between the oil strainer plate and that rectangular boss right before the bell housing split.
DO NOt remove the rear hanger bar from the engine....remove the two horizontal bolts at each end and note their exact position. there is a guide in teh book for the correct position. Mark the nut on teh vertical stud as well. these are adriveline position adjustment.
For the mid bell housing hanger bar...get a 13mm socket and about 3' of rathcet extensions. Under the car looking up you after you remove the starter...you will see a pair of vertical 13mm bolts one on each side of each of the mid hanger mounts. Remove those. Catch the shims and mark them for each side as they fall out. You can now lower the engine and drive train package together.
If ots position was adjusted properly in the first place....simply putting the rear hanger bar back on its vertical studs, installing the two horizontal bolts..tighten then in teh correct vertical position...then reinstal shims and vertical bolts by the mid hanger mount.....and it will be back in adjustment.
Ray |
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reluctantartist
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Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 1929
Location: Bloomington, IN
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Ray!
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1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them. |
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reluctantartist
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Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 1929
Location: Bloomington, IN
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:15 am Post subject: |
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One more question ... Can the transmission oil pan support the weight of the transmission ?
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1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23149
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| No...it cannot. This is teh tricky balance point with the automatic. It is heavier than the 4 speed. The balance point is right past the edge of the oil pan. This is why a dolly or creeper under the tranny tail helps. Ray |
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reluctantartist
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Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 1929
Location: Bloomington, IN
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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If the oil pan can not support the weight of the transmission, how do I split it from the engine when I have the whole unit out? Does anyone have pictures of the removal process?
_________________
1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23149
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Oops....my bad....I misread what you wrote. It can support the weight of the transmission...just not with the engine attached is what i meant. Ray |
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reluctantartist
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Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 1929
Location: Bloomington, IN
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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I am trying to figure out which nuts I am supposed to mark the positions. The two mentioned in the manual and circled do not seem to do much with adjustment. There are two bolts that are vertical that look like they can allow adjustment and the weird screw on the side.
If all goes well I will be dropping this thing tomorrow night.[/img]
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1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them. |
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reluctantartist
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 1929
Location: Bloomington, IN
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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Another question... in the clymer, step 3 for removing the engine talks about the drive shaft plug screw and a special too to remove it. Where is the drive shaft plug screw and what does this tool look like? Also any tips for rotating the engine to remove the torque converter cap screws (Engine removal Step 8, pg 30, in the clymer). Please forgive my ignorance. My vanagon is a bit different.
Thanks all.
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1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them. |
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Mike Fisher
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Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 18046
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:34 am Post subject: |
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I just lever my AT flex plate teeth around with a heavy screwdriver on the case.
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23149
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| reluctantartist wrote: |
I am trying to figure out which nuts I am supposed to mark the positions. The two mentioned in the manual and circled do not seem to do much with adjustment. There are two bolts that are vertical that look like they can allow adjustment and the weird screw on the side.
If all goes well I will be dropping this thing tomorrow night.[/img] |
Ok...read what I write carefully and ask me if you have questions. The two vertical bolts...DO NOT LOOSEN them. Those actually hold the hanger bar mounts. You cannot see this until you remove the bolts that screw upward into that mount...but they are in captive nuts that slide in slots in the body. They are a very very important adjustment....for the moment...assume they are correct and leave them alone.
The stop for the height of har far the ends of the bar are pulled up...is that outer vertical stud that is locked on the very end of the bar by a lock nut on top.
This is most important: when that vertical stud is properly adjusted....the two horizontal bolts with the lock plate will be in the top of their oval holes. Those horizontal bolts are the load carriers. The outer vertical stud is teh adjuster.
The fact that they are in oval holes is an indicator to show that you are properly adjusted at that outer stud before you lock those horizontal 8mm bolts and peen the lock plates over.
And....this is a HUGE adjustment. You must realize that 1/4" of movement at the very rear end hanger bar is a much larger adjustment at the bumper bushing for the transmission at the other end.
The fact that the slot that that vertical stud is in in the end of the bar is a slot...is so you have a small amount of side to side movement.
If the movement in that slot is not enough...it is only then that you loosen the vertical bolts holding the hanger mount to the body to slew the whole package from side to side.
Now.....if when you have the outer vertical stud properly adjusted...which means you mark the upper lock nut for position on this stud so that you get the hanger bar back in the same position vertically......if this adjustment is correct..........................
you can only see that it is correct by going all the way down to the end of teh transmission and making sure that the bunper bushing has no load on it in any direction. This means that you can grad the end of the transmission with one hand and move it about 1/8" in any direction before the rubber bushing contacts the wall of the socket in teh rear crossbeam and stops.
Also...and very important...the metal flange that the bumper bushing is attached to must NOT contact the rear trailing cross member. You can also jusge by looking up both sides at whether the gap between metal bushing plate and trailing member is the same and not tilted in any way...all the way around.
There is to be no load on that bushing. Its very bad for the transmission...yes yes...the typoe 3 has a solid mount...this is NOT a type 3!
In the type 4....100% of all the drivetrain weight is supended at the mid hanger bar over the transmission. The entire unit pivots around thiss point. because its suspended in the middle....unlike the type 3.....any excessive load at the tail or on the hanger bar in the rear...will warp the transmission case and wear it heavily inside.
If the bumper bushing flange is too close to the rear trailing cross menber or touching it....it is now that you loosen the two vertical bolts each end of the rear hanger bar for the hanger mounst and with a prybar...push the whole drivetrain toward the rear by about 1/8"-3/16". that is how much gap needs to be between the bushing plate and crossmember.
If the rear outer vertical stud on teh hanger bar is porperly adjusted..and the two cross bolts at each end are in the top of their oval holes....and the bumper bushing at the end of the transmission is loaded against the bottom of the hole at 6:00...which means the transmission tail is pointed downward toward the front.....then the proper adjustment is to make sure that your mid transmission hanger bars bushings are still intact...and then loosen the two vertical bolts at this mid hanger bar with a 36" long...3/8" extension and ratchet with a 13mm socket..and let that mid hanger bar down just slightly until pressure comes off the bumper bushing.
Then you must add shims...there are already 4 on each side of different thicknesses......to make up teh difference. These shims are idnetical to control arm bushing shims on a Saab 900 (about 1982-85)...get them at any Saab shop.
Likewise...if the rear adjustment s correct.....and the bumper bushing is loaded at 12:00 in the trailing member socket....you need to subtract shims.
Before any of this...you need to make sure that your middle rear hanger bar bushings down by the oil pump are in perfect shape. Always replace them when you can. They have an exact amount of known crush...the spec is in teh late bus clymer manual.
Just like the transmission bumper bushing...the rear hanger bar bushings are NOT designd to carry load. They are designed to arrest movement.
No matter the similarities to type 3 and late bus with a type 4 engine...there are "0" similarities in how the endgine is supended in the type 4. The factroy had bits and pieces of information about all of these adjustments in vaarious books...but nothing in any complete book. The cylmer general VW book has measurements for the trans bumper bushing adjusting gauge...which you can do without if you follow my directions.
Also...the plug for the transmission shaft is only for the 004 four speed...not the automatic. But...it is helpul to pull teh back seat...pull the four speed acces plate with ist three screws...so you can observe the adjustment of the rear bumper bushing. Ray |
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reluctantartist
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Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 1929
Location: Bloomington, IN
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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Another question, are the four bolts that hold the transmission on the car on the middle hanger bar?. I looked for the up front and couldn't find them. It is a lot different than the way my vanagon granny is mounted. Any tips for accessing the transmission bolts that need to be removed when dropping the engine/transmission?
Thanks
_________________
1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them. |
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Mike Fisher
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Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 18046
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Just center your 12" square of plywood on the jack pad and lift just enough to take the pressure off your first bolts. I always have 2 jacks available. It will be simple once you start/get greasy!
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23149
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| reluctantartist wrote: |
Another question, are the four bolts that hold the transmission on the car on the middle hanger bar?. I looked for the up front and couldn't find them. It is a lot different than the way my vanagon granny is mounted. Any tips for accessing the transmission bolts that need to be removed when dropping the engine/transmission?
Thanks |
If the engine and drivetrain are going right back in the wyathey came and you are sure that the drivelibe position is already correct....the boots that get removed are:
(1) Just the lower nuts at each outer end of the rear hanger bar on the vertical stud (in your picture)
(2) The two horizontal (fore and aft) bolts at each end of the rear hanger ...the ones with the peened over plates on them.
(3) The two upper transmission mount holes. There is one on both sides. Pop off the rubber cover plugs in the sheet metal and put a 17mm wrench on theback side uder the car and use a 17mm socket. You will need to take tehstrain off of them by putting a jackunderneath with about 1 pump on it. Ray |
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reluctantartist
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Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 1929
Location: Bloomington, IN
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I am still dropping the engine. When you have twin 2 year olds and a mini farm to take care of getting time to do things is rare...anyway I am down to this...
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(1) Just the lower nuts at each outer end of the rear hanger bar on the vertical stud (in your picture) |
Do you mean this nut?
The reason I am asking is the haynes and clymer make no mention of removing this nut annd Ray mentions what I think is this nut. The clymer and Haynes just mention the two bolts on each side of the engine support. But for now, the engine is not dropping so something is still holding it up. What bolts is the clymer referinng to on page 168 picture 18?
Also does this look like it is adjusted correctly?
Thanks
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1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them. |
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reluctantartist
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Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 1929
Location: Bloomington, IN
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:55 am Post subject: |
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I hope someone can offer input before I do something I regret. Also is the bentley disk more informative and accurate than the clymer and haynes manuals.
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1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them. |
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Mike Fisher
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Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 18046
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:59 am Post subject: |
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You are 'over thinking' this whole deal. I'm sure you have enough 'common sense' to pull an engine safely!
Bentley is considered the Bible/Best for VW's
I also really like my Autopress manual I bought used at www.books4cars.com
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https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey
Last edited by Mike Fisher on Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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reluctantartist
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Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 1929
Location: Bloomington, IN
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:18 am Post subject: |
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That still doesn't answer my question. I have learned the hard way on my vanagon not to force things. I removed the bolts mentioned in the haynes manual and something is still holding it up.
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1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them. |
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