| Author |
Message |
smkn_vw
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2004
Posts: 809
|
 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:46 am Post subject: Cam gear bolts torque setting? |
 |
|
What torque setting should I use to bolt a Magnum straight-cut gear to an Engle cam going into a 2276?
I searched around and guys are torque'ing the bolts in the 14 - 18 ft-lbs. range. In the Berg oil pump instructions he talks about shaving the bolt heads down for clearance and says in his own words "Don't forget to properly clean, Loctite, and re-torque them to 24-26 ft. lbs. when you put them back in". Should I tighten on the high side like Berg mentioned?
_________________
"So didja?" -Bob Hoover |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Howard 111
Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2005
Posts: 1827
Location: Virginia
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, go with 24-26 foot lbs.
. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vgajames
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2002
Posts: 805
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Howard 111 wrote: |
Yes, go with 24-26 foot lbs.
. |
10.4 on that....them other guys are going to have some problems down the road.....  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 27678
Location: Colorado Springs
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
What is the application?
Mag gear, aluminum gear? steel gear?
Allen head? grade 8? grade 5? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mharney
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I torque them at 18 ft-lbs. Cam bolts come loose when someone doesn't torque them or they have other problems, like ovaled gear, etc, which should be discovered during assembly. And I have never had one come loose. Brute force is not the answer to discrepancies, and overtorquing them (think about the cam material itself and the thread depth) is worse. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gerg
a.k.a. 6volt65
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 5454
Location: Monroe, LA
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
I believe the CB gears I used spec'd 18lbs with Loctite.
_________________
Gerg
. . . I got 99 problems and my bus ain't one . . .
'65 Sunroof Beetle
'65 Vert
'60 Singlecab |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mharney wrote: |
| I torque them at 18 ft-lbs. Cam bolts come loose when someone doesn't torque them or they have other problems, like ovaled gear, etc, which should be discovered during assembly. And I have never had one come loose. Brute force is not the answer to discrepancies, and overtorquing them (think about the cam material itself and the thread depth) is worse. |
X2......after 20 years of using this technique to torque cam gears on, I have never had one come loose |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10147
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
X3. 18ft.lb. w/Loctite.
The cam bolts are fine thread, there's a lot more bolt tension at the same torque.
_________________
Shop for unique and useful Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
also available at VanCafe.com!
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is death to doctrine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
smkn_vw
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2004
Posts: 809
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for the replies. The gear I have is from Berg and written on it is "Magnum" a steel gear. I do have mine torqued right now at 18 ft-lbs. with loctite but was wondering if I should redo it after I read the Berg article, I still have the case apart. I also felt 18 ft-lbs. didn't feel like much when I was tightening the bolts. So sounds like I can go tighter with the steel gear if I choose to, maybe it might not hurt but I'm still scratching my head on this one, maybe just leave as is.
Other numbers I found:
18-20 ft-lbs. per Scat catalog.
14 ft-lbs. per Web Cam catalog.
Edit: photo added if anyone see's anything abnormal.
_________________
"So didja?" -Bob Hoover
Last edited by smkn_vw on Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:45 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mharney
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| The actual clamping force associated with the typical 8mm x 1.0 thread is pretty damn tight at 18 ft-lbs. My concern with going any more than that with that thread pitch is that the cam material might get stressed - I HAVE seen stripped out cam flanges, and my best guess about the causes of that have been overtorquing. If you've already torqued it like that, it's done, and the best thing you can do is leave it alone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
smkn_vw
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2004
Posts: 809
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks mharney, I never thought about the thread pitch and what kind of stress can be put on it, makes total sense. I will leave it and call it good.
_________________
"So didja?" -Bob Hoover |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vgajames
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2002
Posts: 805
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| tencentlife wrote: |
X3. 18ft.lb. w/Loctite.
The cam bolts are fine thread, there's a lot more bolt tension at the same torque. |
He said they was Gene Berg Magnum gears.follow bergs Instructions.
They know the parts they supplied you and gave you instructions.
I don't know why some guys try to re-engineer stuff...sheesh. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
smkn_vw
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2004
Posts: 809
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
I just got off the phone with Engle and confirmed 15 - 18 ft-lbs. for their cams. He said threads are fine pitch and any higher torque will strip it right out.
_________________
"So didja?" -Bob Hoover |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10147
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I don't know why some guys try to re-engineer stuff...sheesh. |
Because some of us make a living at this, that's why. If you have to ask.....
By the way, Berg sends out the same torque rec with their alu gears. Such exacting specifications, I'm so impressed.
Meanwhile the gears, steel or alu, are being bolted to someone else's cams. Shouldn't the cam maker be making the torque recs, since it's the cam hub threads that will strip out? Oh, wait, look up! there's a torque rec from the cam maker! Well I'll be.....
Building engines successfully for your bread, maintaining your own reputation, is not accomplished by bolting together a bunch of parts out of boxes, no matter what the instructions say. Wreck one $80 cam by stripping a hub thread over a 5-cent bolt and you may reconsider applying your own judgement.
Question everything, assume nothing. The short answer to your question?: it's because YOU are the engineer in charge.
If the responsibility is too much, get into another line of work.
_________________
Shop for unique and useful Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
also available at VanCafe.com!
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is death to doctrine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Howard 111
Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2005
Posts: 1827
Location: Virginia
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have the Gene Berg Book of Instructions which is a collection of the proper instructions that come with every part they sell.
For every cam gear they sell, it says 24-26 ft lbs of torque to tighten the cam gear, be it a straight cut, adjust-a-cam gear, or "normal" gear. And this is for Berg or Engle cams.
. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gerg
a.k.a. 6volt65
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 5454
Location: Monroe, LA
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My guess is that Berg documented a number of things. Actual specs that work, and other numbers that he found to work fine on his numerous builds for what ever reason.
I did 18 ft/lbs. That was on the cam gear instructions (which I DO find odd, since they don't make the cam, but they are THEIR button head screws) and also seen above in the quote from a call to Engle.
However, I have a WebCam - I probably should have looked to them as well for their cam torque spec.
I do believe that being on the low side, versus higher than a spec is probably safer until I correct it. Clean threads, 18 ft/lbs and red loctite.
I'll look at Webcam's site now to see what they recommend.
_________________
Gerg
. . . I got 99 problems and my bus ain't one . . .
'65 Sunroof Beetle
'65 Vert
'60 Singlecab |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The literature for both my Eagle cam and my CB billet straight cuts said 20Ft/Lbs.....
_________________
| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mharney
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Howard 111 wrote: |
I have the Gene Berg Book of Instructions which is a collection of the proper instructions that come with every part they sell.
For every cam gear they sell, it says 24-26 ft lbs of torque to tighten the cam gear, be it a straight cut, adjust-a-cam gear, or "normal" gear. And this is for Berg or Engle cams.
. |
Yeah.. ask Engle what they think of Berg's recommendation to put that kind of torque on their gear flange. lol |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gerg
a.k.a. 6volt65
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 5454
Location: Monroe, LA
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
_________________
Gerg
. . . I got 99 problems and my bus ain't one . . .
'65 Sunroof Beetle
'65 Vert
'60 Singlecab |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bugnut68
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2003
Posts: 4180
Location: Eugene, OR
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| With a stock gear and Engle 125 cam, I torqued the bolts to 18 ft. pounds with Loctite. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
