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kjvforme
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2009
Posts: 222
Location: Oregon
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 Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:24 pm Post subject: Distributor #1 Spark Plug Mark |
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I have a question in regards to the location of the scribed mark on the destributor that is used to signify the location for the #1 Spark plug lead. I have four distributors three out of the four show the mark over by the vacuum canister, the fourth is located on the other side of the distributor. here is the ones I have:
0231137021 SVAC 1968 Beetle MT 1500/1600
0231137009 SVAC 1966-1967 Beetle MT 1300/1500
0231178009 Mech High performance mechanical
0231167070 DVAC 1972-1973 Beetle 1600
Why is 0231167070 different than the others? |
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
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Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, it sounds like the DVDA is the only one that is original.
Can you post pics of all the distributors?
Is it possible the person you bought them from modified them? Could they have rotated the bottom cog of the distributor 180deg?
Here is a popular pic from Glenn that shows two Beetle distributors. They are both setup how they would look if you dropped then into a T1 engine which was at TDC of the compression stroke for #1 cylinder. Note the rotors are pointed to different positions but the #1 mark on the rim is oriented correctly where the rotor is pointing. Also note the correct vacuum canister location (8-o'clock) on the left one. This is how the distributors would be viewed from the rear of the car. Note that neither #1 mark is near the vacuum canister.
Someone did once have a Type3 distributor with a #1 mark near the vacuum can that he was trying to run in his Beetle.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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glutamodo 
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26528
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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The answer is... VW changed it during the DVDA era - and kept it once that morphed into the SVDA era. Centrifugal-009s was a Bosch thing - although there were VW Industrial distributors (kind of rare since a lot of Industrials got magnetos) whose family that the 009 was part of.
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vamram
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Joined: March 08, 2012
Posts: 8000
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:12 pm Post subject: What about this DVDA? |
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Hopefully I can add this question to the thread since it has to do w/the correct plug wire locations on a DVDA.
I have a DVDA w/this numbering:
JFUR4
0231167049
113 905 205 AJ
and a CompuTronix points replacement kit.
I want to install it in my '72 Super, w/an AH engine code; my carb is a German Solex 34 PICT-3 rebuilt to better-than-factory by Tim @ Volkzbitz.
If I install it and move the wires to where the #1 is on this, as shown in one of the above pics, the car won't start unless the vacuum can is almost pressed up against the heat riser at 9+ o'clock.
If I face the vacuum can front, say btn 6-7, and leave the wires in the same config as w/the SVDA where the #1 is at about 5 o'clock, the car starts right away. So I adjusted it to get the idle to btn 870-920 and it purred like a kitten.
Then I point the strobe at it and checked the timing at idle....29 degrees BTDC!!! How is that possible?? I wasn't detecting any pings at all, even reving it up to 3500 and letting go of the throttle.
Something's not right so I put back the svda w/points, times fine at 7.5+ BTDC.
Is something wrong w/this distributor that move the cables per the 1973 DVDA picture above doesn't work? Even though the timing mark on the rim is where the pic shows the #1 to be?
Thanks! |
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16561
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:00 am Post subject: Re: What about this DVDA? |
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| vamram wrote: |
I have a DVDA w/this numbering:
JFUR4
0231167049
113 905 205 AJ
and a CompuTronix points replacement kit.
I want to install it in my '72 Super, w/an AH engine code; my carb is a German Solex 34 PICT-3 rebuilt to better-than-factory by Tim @ Volkzbitz. |
That 205AJ distributor is from a '71 Manual Trans Beetle, but is interchangeable with the 205AN '72-'73 Manual Trans Beetle so would be a good fit is you have the DVDA carb to go with it.
Is your new carb a Solex? Do you have the flange stamping from the base of your new carb? Match the stamping here to see if it was made to work with your distributor. The SVDA and DVDA carbs were slightly different with the biggest difference being the size of the hole in the throttle plate.
{Carb+Distributor details from glutamodo}
| vamram wrote: |
If I install it and move the wires to where the #1 is on this, as shown in one of the above pics, the car won't start unless the vacuum can is almost pressed up against the heat riser at 9+ o'clock.
If I face the vacuum can front, say btn 6-7, and leave the wires in the same config as w/the SVDA where the #1 is at about 5 o'clock, the car starts right away. So I adjusted it to get the idle to btn 870-920 and it purred like a kitten. |
Looking at the pics above (leaving out the 056 Autostick SVDA, since you don't have an autostick), all the vacuum advance distributors (SVDA and DVDA) have #1 plug wire located around 1-o'clock. Only the mechanical advance-only 009 has #1 installed near 5-o'clock. If you tried to install your DVDA distributor with #1 at the 5-o'clock position and line up the #1 cylinder notch with the plug wire... I would fully imagine your vacuum can would need to rotate clockwise more than it could to get the proper timing. It would, as you mentioned, hit the intake. This was because you mistakenly thought the #1 spark plug wire should be at the 5-o'clock position on a 205AJ distributor, it does not.
Let's look at this in more detail....
1) We will agree that what we ultimately want is for the distributor to send a spark to the correct cylinder at the appropriate time (when the spark plug should spark -- at idle, this is within a few crank degrees of TDC for that cylinder).
2) If we can identify this for cylinder #1, then the remaining cylinders will fire in the 1-4-3-2 clockwise order and we can place the spark plug wires into the distributor cap using this order starting from #1 plug wire.
3) The TDC mark on the crank pulley only indicates the position where the #1 (and #3) cylinder is at the top of its stroke. The crank marking by itself does not tell you when the #1 cylinder is at the end of the compression stroke and in turn when the spark should fire. The engine could just as well be at the end of the exhaust stroke (at the end of the compression and the exhaust stroke the piston is at the TDC position). If you are uncertain that your spark plug wires are installed correctly on the distributor then you will needed another way to determine when the #1 cylinder is at the end of the compression stroke.
4) If you rock the crank back and forth and see the valve(s) for a cylinder moving, that cylinder is not at TDC.
When a cylinder is at the end of the compression stroke the valves for that cylinder will be closed to build compression (you can see this as a gap between the rocker arm and the valve tip). The crank will be nearly 180-deg from either valve opening/moving. This orientation of crank position and valve positions such that a cylinder is ready to fire is controlled by the crank and the cam... NOT the distributor.
5) The crank and cam are mechanically linked via the timing gears and cannot be changed without case dis-assembly (the exception might be a racing camshaft gear with adjustable cam gear+bolts)
6) Since there is a mechanical connection between the crank + camshaft + distributor drive + distributor... if your crank+cam are at the end of the compression stroke for #1 cylinder, the distributor rotor MUST be pointing to where #1 plug wire should be installed on the distributor cap. This allows the spark to reach the #1 spark plug at the correct time.
Knowing the above... rotate the crank clockwise until you see the #1 cylinder intake valve open and then close. Continue rotating the crank clockwise about another 180-deg until the TDC or timing mark lines up with the case split. Check that neither valve for #1 are moving when you rock the crank back and forth. At this point #1 cylinder is ready to fire.
The rotor will now be pointing to where #1 spark plug wire should be installed on the distributor.
I'm not certain if you can static time your distributor with the electronics points module you have, but this would be where you would do it.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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VolkzBitz
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Joined: April 30, 2009
Posts: 303
Location: Washington State USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:38 am Post subject: |
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Vamram has the flange # VW325-2, so yes it is a DVDA distributor carburetor, but it has been made to run with the SVDA with the smaller hole in the throttle plate. Its been soldered into a countersunk hole, and re-drilled with the smaller size hole, so its easy to reverse it if needed.
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Quality VW Solex carburetor restoration
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Der Vergaser Meister |
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vamram
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Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:46 am Post subject: |
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Ashman, thanks for the detailed explanation for finding TDC and the other tech info.
Tim - thanks for piping in. I didn't know your prep included the soldering. i'm not about to mess with your masterpiece of a carb, so i'm swapping the computronix into the SVDA.
The DVDA is also a really nice and clean original Bosch unit, rebuilt sometime over the last 6 months and will soon be up for sale here. Probably later today.
Thanks!
Victor |
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 33056
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Once you figure this all out - and this also goes for guys who actually DO have the distributor drive gear installed correctly, paint little numbers on your distributor cap !!!
Even better - make these little numbers correspond to the correct cylinder !!!
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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vamram
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| Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Cusser - yep, I always paint a "1" on the cap post where the #1 wire is.
I installed the SVDA w/the Computronix module and timed it to 8.4 BTDC at idle, 30 degrees at 3k RPM w/the vacuum hose connected. Idling nicely at 900, give or take 20 rpm. Idles super smooth, no misses, great acceleration.
for the record, here are the numbers from the distributor:
Z43
0231168015
043905205L
BUT - the number 1 is on the 5 o'clock post, not where the notch is on the SVDA - 1 o'clock like in the above pictures. And this is w/the timing notch on the crankcase split mark. How could it be running so well if this is the wrong spot for #1? Valves are adjusted to 006, which I wouldn't even be able to do if this was not TDC...or would I? I'm just a shadetree hobbyist so i learn from y'all and as I go, and from the half dozen VW manuals I've collected over the years. Oh, I've got 120+ compression on all cylinders too.
I've put about 3,500 miles on the car this year (when using the points/condenser setup) and narry a problem w/overheating, pinging, etc. I have an oil sensor so I can see that temp and pressure are always good too. And every bit of factory tin is in place, including Mr. Hoover and a working German t-stat.
So...i'll have to run through Ashman's steps after the engine cools off.
Could this engine block have been assembled w/the cam not at the right spot where the crankshaft dots are? |
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ashman40
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Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| vamram wrote: |
for the record, here are the numbers from the distributor:
Z43
0231168015
043905205L
BUT - the number 1 is on the 5 o'clock post, not where the notch is on the SVDA - 1 o'clock like in the above pictures. And this is w/the timing notch on the crankcase split mark. How could it be running so well if this is the wrong spot for #1? |
I do not believe this is a VW distributor meant for a Beetle. Or if it was, it was very uncommon. This model is not listed on either of the distributor spec site:
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm
I found hints that it may have been for a later VW Bus with a Type4 engine. While I can't confirm it, the 043 seems to indicate a part made in Mexico where they were making the Bus into the 2000s.
All this said, I wouldn't be surprise that the mark for #1 cylinder is not located where it is on a Beetle distributor.
| vamram wrote: |
| I installed the SVDA w/the Computronix module and timed it to 8.4 BTDC at idle, 30 degrees at 3k RPM w/the vacuum hose connected. Idling nicely at 900, give or take 20 rpm. Idles super smooth, no misses, great acceleration. |
Do you still have 30BTDC timing readings @3000rpm with the vacuum advance hose disconnected and plugged? The settings made at 3000rpm+ are for adjusting timing based on the amount of mechanical advance added to the initial timing. 28-32BTDC is a safe Total Advance (initial + mechanical). Beyond 3000-3500rpm more mechanical advance is not needed even if engine rpm increases (turbulence inside the combustion chamber reduces the time it takes for the entire mixture to burn, reducing the need to start the ignition earlier).
Having the vacuum advance connected as well can alter your timing readings (vacuum varies too much between min/max values). With Total Advance set at 30BTDC... then reconnect the vacuum hose and see that the vacuum advance adds even more advance. There is no set amount it should add, but it should add some advance. If it does not add any timing advance, the vacuum can could be bad.
The other way to test this is to note your idle timing with the hose disconnected and plugged and then plug the hose into a high vacuum port on the carb or intake. This should make the vacuum advance jump to max and will add that advance to the idle timing. If the idle rpms jump too much and exceed 1000-1200rpm, the mechanical advance could start to kick in affecting your reading of vacuum advance. This is basically why vacuum advance cans have advance ratings based on the amount of vacuum applied to the can and not any rpms.
| vamram wrote: |
| Could this engine block have been assembled w/the cam not at the right spot where the crankshaft dots are? |
Possible, but I doubt you would get a good idle if it were.
It is more likely you have a non-Beetle distributor which has the #1 mark somewhere that won't apply when installed in the T1 case. The distributor drive gear orientation has a big effect here.
T1 Beetle/Bus engines should have their drive gear oriented like this when at #1 TDC:
T3 engines have their gear aligned like this:
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AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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glutamodo
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Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:06 am Post subject: |
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The 043905205L was a non-USA 1600DP distributor introduced in 8/75 for non-USA Bus models with the AS engine.
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vamram
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Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Thank you both for your answers. Great learning experience. So,
1. my SVDA definitely not from a Bug, which explains the placement of the #1 mark.
2. based on the Figure 7.2 image, which I recognize from the Bentley manual, my #1 TDC spot may be more than 90 degrees counterclockwise off the mark. 
So, i'm probably due for a rebuild some day in the not too distant future to correct some things. That will be a huge 1st for me.
Oh boy... |
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vamram
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Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:35 am Post subject: |
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One other thing Ashman - vacuum hose on or off I get 30 at 3k or 3.5k RPM. Maybe a degree or two more. No change at idle.
Are you suggesting that I plug the vacuum can to the manifold port while plugging the carb port for test purposes?
Thanks. |
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vamram
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Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| Meant to type 'CONNECT" the can to the manifold port, plug the carb vacuum port. |
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ashman40
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, it sounds like your vacuum can may not be working. I would expect it to add a few degrees of advance at a steady 3000rpms.
Manifold vacuum is highest at idle. If you connect your vacuum advance hose to an intake vacuum port it should jump to max advance (8-12 deg) immediately. This is a good test of your vacuum can. You must use an intake (manifold) vacuum source as the vacuum advance port on the left side of the carb is "ported vacuum" and reads zero vacuum at idle.
Alternatively, you could use a hand vacuum pump with gauge to apply 8 in-Hg (200 mm-Hg) of vacuum to the can at idle and check that you get the additional 8-12 deg of expected advance.
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AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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drs1023
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Could this engine block have been assembled w/the cam not at the right spot where the crankshaft dots are? |
From experience - the engine WILL NOT RUN if you miss more than a notch on cam gear/crank gear alignment. |
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vamram
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Ashman - here's what I have after checking the vacuum can and the timing, correctly, I think:
- port vacuum plugged and manifold vacuum plugged into the dist. vacuum can: I get a jump of close to 10 degrees in advance at idle so the vacuum can is fine - correct?
- port and manifold vacuum plugged, dist. vacuum can open at 3.5k RPM to 30 degrees, translates into just over 20 degrees at idle!! how's that possible??
- idle is fine, jumping btn 890-950.
So now my timing at idle is set to 20 degrees BTDC w/everything plugged back in. Is it ok to leave it this advanced at idle? I'm afraid i'm going to burn up the engine.
Just as a reminder, i'm using a Computronix electronic ignition module rather than points. |
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vamram
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| One other thing - at idle, the timing jumps btn whatever it's set to, in this case 20 degrees, and another 2-3 degrees BTDC. So it doesn't idle steady on the crankcase split line. |
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glutamodo
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Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Manifold vacuum to the advance canister?? That's not right. What carb are you using here? The vacuum advance should not engage at all at idle, the closed throttle butterfly should be blocking the drilling for the advance. |
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sb001
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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glutamado I think he only did that as a test to see whether the vacuum canister was working, since as ashman explained the manifold has highest vacuum pressure at idle. It was only temporary.
vamram instead of plugging off the ports on the carb and leaving the vacuum can port open, reattach your hose to the vacuum canister and plug the hose at the other end with a golf tee or some such. Leave the ports on the carb open. Try the test again and see if it makes any difference.
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