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dtrunk
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2013
Posts: 4
Location: NV
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 Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:29 pm Post subject: Wiring Nightmare Help 70 Std Beetle |
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long time reader, you guys REALLY helped me a lot to even get this far.
this was free to me, but has been a nightmare rebuild. originally there was oil leaking from the prev owner #1 putting his hand over the exhaust #2 by stripping out the oil screen cover bolts/nuts; additionally a field mouse OWNED my hood wiring, which was already shady to begin with. reset rings, one cylinder all the rings were aligned; fixed oil cover best i could; finishing up the wiring, replaced about 20 feet and 15+ connections (though I'm not confident they go were they should. there is no radio and this is only for off road.
Current issue: Ignition tumbler has a broken key in it, can't seem to find on or start position (when powered the car seems in accessory mode always). I was considering a battery disconnect under the rear seat, switch up front (dash) to bridge the HOT to ??? leads, then a push button to engage the starter.
^^ is that "right" way to do it? what amps for the battery disconnect? what about the two switches? what are the wires I want from picture 1; i see black(goes to #1 fuse back), blck/red (appears to go back to the starter), red (appears to be main power).
I'm already vested like 10+ hours and $200 bucks, the g/f is pissed; need to get running asap.
^there is a open spade connections on the relay in the center there, am i missing something? a ground? |
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dirthead O.G.
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Joined: June 07, 2007
Posts: 230
Location: SLC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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wow, looks like a mess. Best thing to do is just follow the schematic
I am still working on my 73, and it is more complicated than yours. If I can do mine, yours should be a snap!! Wont take you long if you dedicate your morning to it.
Be methodical, and double check your work, and you will be fine.
Would be a great time for you to organize and tidy up the wiring as well! Good luck.
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73 Standard |
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dtrunk
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2013
Posts: 4
Location: NV
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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what amp rating is needed for a battery disconnect?
what amp rating is needed for switch to power everything on?
what amp rating is needed for push button to engage starter?
what is the relay thing in the middle of picture #3? |
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Ferguson
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Joined: October 23, 2010
Posts: 433
Location: Avon, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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the relay under the back seat is the rear window defroster, i added a push button start on my 72 standard I used a 30 amp relay and used a momentary push button to engage the starter
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(o)\!/(o) Proud owner of a 1972 Beetle, 72 Super Beetle, 76 convertible Beetle and a 69 Fastback
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dirthead O.G.
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Posts: 230
Location: SLC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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I dont know all the amp rating stuff, but I believe the relay in question is the flasher relay.
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JerryMCarter1
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Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 6199
Location: N.W. Phoenix
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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you have a lot of questions
If you are tryin to get the car to run
do this below
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Experience always triumphs over hearsay and You get to select which theory to believe |
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JerryMCarter1
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Joined: January 07, 2007
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Location: N.W. Phoenix
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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run a 12 volt wire from the plus side to the coil - do not leave this wire hooked up when it is not running - if the points are closed it will burn the wire
Jerry
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Experience always triumphs over hearsay and You get to select which theory to believe |
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dtrunk
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2013
Posts: 4
Location: NV
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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i am trying to get the car to run, but i want to also assure the rest of the accessories (wipers, lights, etc) have power. I understand the option to run a jumper cable to the starter, but i don't want to do this; use the wires in place and have the starting button on the dash area.
so if i bridge the ignition black and Red, that will keep the power always on; right? then i'll use a battery disconnect close to the battery as the main off/on and a 30amp push button (Red and red/black) just to jump the starter. ((Is it that simple?))
this is the item i'm unsure of, with the red arrow pointing to it. in my brothers bug the item is wired differently. not sure what it is so that i can look it up.
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Ferguson
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Joined: October 23, 2010
Posts: 433
Location: Avon, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Ferguson wrote: |
| the relay under the back seat is the rear window defroster, |
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(o)\!/(o) Proud owner of a 1972 Beetle, 72 Super Beetle, 76 convertible Beetle and a 69 Fastback
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Ferguson
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Location: Avon, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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it is for the rear window defroster
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(o)\!/(o) Proud owner of a 1972 Beetle, 72 Super Beetle, 76 convertible Beetle and a 69 Fastback
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JerryMCarter1
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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There is only one person in here that has memorized every wire in the car -- he might show up -he lives in Japan - If I were you I would only be working with a volt ohm meter to test. You hook it up - turn the switch and read if it has power
Jerry
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16663
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| JerryMCarter1 wrote: |
| There is only one person in here that has memorized every wire in the car -- he might show up -he lives in Japan... |
Oh dear, I think Jerry might be referring to me! 
1) You need the correct wiring diagram for a '70 Beetle (The above one is for a Type2 Bus).
2) The relay under your rear seat is for the rear window defroster as others have indicated. It is JP9 in this diagram.
As you can see in the diagram, only three of the four terminals on the relay are used. Most people will pull the fuses from the inline fuse holder next to the voltage regulator to disable the rear defroster. Many no longer work after 40-years.
3) Your flasher relay appears to be the "black box" type from the '67~'69 (square black box above fuse box). But that switch to the left of the ash tray (right of ash tray from the drivers seat) appears to be the late model E-Flasher switch. The switch used with the "black box" flasher relay only had 3-prongs. Which system do you want to use? Could you use the late model switch with the earlier "black box" in place of the late model flasher relay? I don't know, maybe.
4) I cannot make out much of your wiring because it appears to have been replaced with splices... LOTS of splices. I see solid yellow and solid white wires all over the place. In the original wiring they were only used for the low and high beam lights! I see brown wires splice with other color wires.... brown wires in VWs are the ground wires. Splicing them with other colors is just asking for a short.
5) From your pic I can see that the TOP of the fuse box is the INPUT (unprotected) side (you can see that multiple fuses are connected together on this side, that indicates the input side). Power flows into the top of the fuses and out the bottom. Typically one wire brings power into multiple fuses. The wiring diagram above shows the input of the fuse box on the bottom edge. Keep this in mind as you read the diagram. Also remember from the trunk side of the fuse box fuse #1 is always on the right.
6) The main power into the ignition switch comes from the headlight switch. It was originally a heavy gauge red wire. It will have constant 12v from the battery.
7) The ignition switched output is the black wire that ran to the top of the #1 & #2 fuses. This powers these two fuses but there is also another black wire connected to the top of these two fuses that will run all the way to the engine to power the ignition coil.
8 ) Find these two wires I described in #6 & #7 above in the steering column. Put a 30A switch between the two and this switch is your new ignition switch.
9) There should be another heavy gauge red or red/black wire that runs from the steering column to a junction behind the dash and then to a red wire that runs all the way to the rear of the car. It will be part of the thick black wiring harness running down to the right in the pic from your trunk side of the dash. This is the starter solenoid #50 wire. In the pic from under your rear seat the other end of the #50 wire is the thick red wire with the junction just to the right of the rear window defroster relay (#2 above). You can see that this red wire exits the rear of the floor pan next to the brake line.
With your car in neutral and parking brake set, touch this wire to the red battery wire that came from the headlight switch. The engine should start cranking. Place a momentary switch between the red battery wire and this red or red/white wire and you have yourself a starter button to crank the engine.
10) As far as a switch for the wire from the battery positive terminal to the voltage regulator... I have a 50A fuse there now and it hasn't blown, but I am running a hard start relay that reduces the current while cranking.
I found a Hella switch that is rated at 100A (continuous). That should be plenty for just about everything excluding the battery cable that runs to the starter motor.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hla-002843011/overview/
To be honest, if this were my car... I'd hunt down a used wiring harness and relays from another '70 or '71 Beetle in a recycle yard, or buy a new wiring harness. With all those mis-colored wires anyone trying to help troubleshoot your wiring will need many extra hours just to trace the wires. Expect a mechanic to charge a whole lot more than typical, or not take on the job at all.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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dtrunk
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Joined: March 15, 2013
Posts: 4
Location: NV
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:25 am Post subject: |
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thanks for all the great info guys, and especially Ash. YES, the wiring is CRAZY; but i spent about 5-8 hours making good soldiered splices and heat shrinking, wire choice was limited, hence using LOTS of colors that have nothing to do with nothing. YES, it is a mess; but as I've worked on it over the past week it becomes easier and easier to trace wires; just last night i found a wire plugged in to the wrong spade on the fuse box.
i went out an bought a napa KS6180 ignition switch, hooked it up, and now at least the engine cranks. I'm not sure that the ignition switch keeps the black wire hot when cranking (which i assume it would need to be since the black wire also powers the coil. taking a digital multimeter out there later and double checking some things.
THANK YOU sooooooo much guys, even the few smart ass comments were funny to read.... damn i love the internet and the samba. |
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16663
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| dtrunk wrote: |
| i went out an bought a napa KS6180 ignition switch, hooked it up, and now at least the engine cranks. I'm not sure that the ignition switch keeps the black wire hot when cranking (which i assume it would need to be since the black wire also powers the coil. taking a digital multimeter out there later and double checking some things. |
In the "old days"... in an effort to provide a more powerful spark while cranking the engine... a separate wire was run from the starter solenoid to the ignition coil. In those days the ballast resistor was external. The wire from the starter solenoid ran to the near side of the ballast resistor so the coil and points saw more current just while the engine was cranking.
Also, by cutting power to all accessories except the ignition, you gave all the battery cranking power to the starter.
What you normally see in these type switches is that the engine will not "catch" while cranking... it catches the split second AFTER you let the key return to ON. The momentum of the engine has it spinning when the coil begins to spark.
You could run a separate wire from the starter solenoid #50 wire to the ignition coil #15 terminal. This will power the coil from the starter solenoid while the engine is cranking.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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