Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Help a Vw Bus Idiot! Electrical
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Split Bus Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Sdmjake
Samba Member


Joined: May 01, 2012
Posts: 124
Location: Sandy Springs, GA
Sdmjake is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:41 am    Post subject: Help a Vw Bus Idiot! Electrical Reply with quote

Greetings Sambanistas. I have tried and tried to figure out the electrical and have finally decided to ask for help/comments (uh-oh!). I will preface this by saying i know NOTHING about electrical. I have been thru virtually every thread here trying to figure out how to fix my mess and am unable to do so. Now wary of creating a meltdown, I need some help. Hopefully the pics will help (no one wants to read all this)...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Background story: I had no flashers [bad switch would spark but not work] but had all other lights/signals. Put in a new emergency flasher switch. Now i have headlights and tailights. I have turn signals front n back. but i have no brake lights! arrgh. Bulbs are good but no power going there. No power going to the master cylinder switches. BTW, i have no parking lights. I believe (help me here) that this wire burned up. You can see it was bound with the yellow and white headlight wires...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

When the parking light wire burned up (this little bastard is ungrounded?) it melted some others close by. Here is the brake light wire that goes to relay 54 on the 9pin box:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

So, I have power on the brake light wire at the fuse box but not the brake wire at the 9pin relay. The wire is all "bacon'ed". [see the part between my fingers!] Can i simply put a patch on this wire (say from the point 'tween my fingers) to the 9pin?
I don't care about the parking lights. Can i just cut off the fried ends and tape em up?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

What i MUST HAVE is brake lights!!! Any help is appreciated. And please use small non technical terms as i don't understand this spaghetti and try as i might i haven't had an "A-Ha" moment yet...do i need a new 9pin box? Can i "patch in" some good wire? Can i "eliminate" the parking light wire?
Thanks -sdm
[/img]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Eric&Barb
Samba Member


Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 20889
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
Eric&Barb is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the parking lights are unfused.

You can try patching in new wire to get power to the brake lights and parking lights, BUT there is a chance that wire fire has or will soon cause shorts in other wires in the harness.

At that point you will have to figure out if you want to try cutting the harness open to repair or just replace.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
olliehank47
Samba Member


Joined: May 04, 2011
Posts: 1198

olliehank47 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, please post the year of your bus--probably a 66 or 67 because you have the 9 pin box, but it will help all of us if you let us know.

Second, use the "Technical" button at the top of the page and click on "wiring" to find a diagram of your bus--very simple to follow the wires.

Now, to your post. I would not reuse any wires that have been compromised by burning, you will only be asking for trouble later. Make a decision to route new wiring for the devices that have been compromised.

Use a test light for the following checks.

I'm not exactly clear on your situation. You have power to the fuse for the brake lights and power to the master cylinder switch but no power from the MC to the 9 pin box, correct? If that's the case, the switch on the MC is likely bad. Remove the two wires from the switch and connect the ends together. Turn on the ignition and test for power on the wire to the 9 pin box. Got power? If so, the switch is bad and needs replacing.

Still no power? Test to see if you have power where the two wires join. If so, the wire from the switch to the 9 pin box needs replacing (the one shown in your hand in the photos.)

As far as the parking lights, yes, the wire to the lights is unfused and connects directly to the light switch. Simply run a new wire from the switch to each of the parking lights. I'd suggest you put an in-line fuse in your new wire to prevent what caused the problem to begin with.

Any other questions or situations, please post so we can help you along. Your problem doesn't sound too severe, but you should really use new wires in the compromised areas.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dawerks
Samba Member


Joined: September 15, 2010
Posts: 2302

dawerks is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

olliehank47 wrote:

I'm not exactly clear on your situation. You have power to the fuse for the brake lights and power to the master cylinder switch but no power from the MC to the 9 pin box, correct? If that's the case, the switch on the MC is likely bad. Remove the two wires from the switch and connect the ends together. Turn on the ignition and test for power on the wire to the 9 pin box. Got power? If so, the switch is bad and needs replacing.

Still no power? Test to see if you have power where the two wires join. If so, the wire from the switch to the 9 pin box needs replacing (the one shown in your hand in the photos.)


If these test have power, should the taillights turn on? (I don't know how the 9pin magic box works).
_________________
"There is only one sin; disconnection from self."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
crofty
Judas of the North


Joined: August 09, 2000
Posts: 18884
Location: Land of Whine and Phonies
crofty is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As was mentioned before, if your wires have burned, I'd replace the bad wires in their entirety.
_________________
When in doubt, logo it out!!

HamburgerBrad wrote:

I slept on crofty's tent once. I passed out drunk from two bottles of Everett's brother's wine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Sdmjake
Samba Member


Joined: May 01, 2012
Posts: 124
Location: Sandy Springs, GA
Sdmjake is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Eric/Barb. I really do not want to create fire hazard but i also don't want to replace the original harness unless absolutely necessary. The original is mostly all good and i've never had problems before so i hate to tear out 99% good just because i created some bad when replaceing the flasher switch.
My bus is a 67. I have a wiring diagram (other threads said enlarge it and print it so i did) and i think I follow it pretty good {but what you call simple i call frustrating]. Imagine you are talking to a 4 yr old because thats how i feel despite my best efforts to figure it out!
ollie: Sorry for the confusdion, I have power at the fuse for the brake wire but NO power on the wire at the MC (using test light).
Consequently, and i use this word greatly assuming that i understand the power flow, there is no power at the 9pin. I don't think my MC switchs are bad but simply not getting any juice--but i will test by tonight per your instruction.
If we assume the MC switch is good is there some way to tell if the 9pin is messed up?? Guess i gotta get power to it to tell first...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Sdmjake
Samba Member


Joined: May 01, 2012
Posts: 124
Location: Sandy Springs, GA
Sdmjake is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK...so ya'll are confirming one of my main concerns: Patching in a wire [where my fingers are on the brake wire that goes to the 9pin) is a BAD idea and i have to figure out how to replace that whole piece (shoot!).
I suppose same goes for the parking wires [though i don't give a crap about parking light feature. Either headlights are on or off for me].
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
olliehank47
Samba Member


Joined: May 04, 2011
Posts: 1198

olliehank47 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sdmjake wrote:
Thanks Eric/Barb. I really do not want to create fire hazard but i also don't want to replace the original harness unless absolutely necessary. The original is mostly all good and i've never had problems before so i hate to tear out 99% good just because i created some bad when replaceing the flasher switch.
My bus is a 67. I have a wiring diagram (other threads said enlarge it and print it so i did) and i think I follow it pretty good {but what you call simple i call frustrating]. Imagine you are talking to a 4 yr old because thats how i feel despite my best efforts to figure it out!
ollie: Sorry for the confusdion, I have power at the fuse for the brake wire but NO power on the wire at the MC (using test light).
Consequently, and i use this word greatly assuming that i understand the power flow, there is no power at the 9pin. I don't think my MC switchs are bad but simply not getting any juice--but i will test by tonight per your instruction.
If we assume the MC switch is good is there some way to tell if the 9pin is messed up?? Guess i gotta get power to it to tell first...


Use your test light and do the following checks in sequence.

1. Turn on the ignition. Do you have power at both sides of the fuse for the brake lights? Yes, fuse is good. No, fuse is bad--replace.

2. With ignition on, disconnect wires from MC switch. Do you have power from pne of the wires? Yes, normal. No, wire from fuse is bad--replace.

3. Turn off ignition. Connect wires together at the MC. Turn on ignition. Do you have power at the wire that connects to the 9 pin box? Yes, normal. No, replace wire from MC switch to 9 pin box.

4. Turn off ignition. Connect wires to MC switch. Turn on ignition. Press down brake pedal and check power at wire from MC. Do you have power? Yes--switch is good. No--replace switch.

5. Turn off ignition, disconnect wires from MC switch and join together. Connect wire from MC to 9 pin box. Turn on ignition and look to see if you brake lights are on. Yes, normal. No, faulty 9 pin box or fault at the turn signal switch (assuming your brake lights work at the fixtures themselves.)

If you do the above checks, you should be able to track down where the problem lies. Please let us know the results of each test, and especially what happens with test 5.

If you need to replace wiring, you can simply run a separate wire outside the loom.

The tail lights are on a different circuit than the brake lights.

Once you have a confirmed connection/power back up to the 9 pin and into the turn indicator, let us know.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Sdmjake
Samba Member


Joined: May 01, 2012
Posts: 124
Location: Sandy Springs, GA
Sdmjake is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ollie... and Thanks for spelling it out like that. I will print this off and run thru the checklist & sequence this evening [if time permits]. Your time and expertise is truly appreciated! Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Sdmjake
Samba Member


Joined: May 01, 2012
Posts: 124
Location: Sandy Springs, GA
Sdmjake is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Ollie...I didn't make it very far down your checklist!
1) I DO have power at the top and bottom of the fuse. All good here.
2) I do NOT have power in the wire at the MC. So, it looks like I gotta run new wire. Sounds like everyone thought i should anyway so here we go. Per diagram key, I have 16g wire. What is the best way to pull new stuff thru? Shocked Guess I am about to find out. I disconnected all the wire: both brake wires and the horn wire. (hell, I may get an operable horn out of this too! Never had one of those Embarassed ) gonna see what i can do next...not sure it gets done tonight but knowing is half the battle. Thanks again!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Sdmjake
Samba Member


Joined: May 01, 2012
Posts: 124
Location: Sandy Springs, GA
Sdmjake is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update for Olliehank
2) I have run pretty new wire to the master cylinder and now have power there. Very Happy
Did not get connectors spliced to the wire to test MC switches yet (kids sleep duty etc) but will complete this tomorrow. Fingers crossed...but I bet this fixes it.
Also 3) is good too. I have power back to the 9pin as I replaced that wire as well.
Will update but, again, many thanks!!


Last edited by Sdmjake on Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
olliehank47
Samba Member


Joined: May 04, 2011
Posts: 1198

olliehank47 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sdmjake wrote:
Update for Olliehank
2) I have run pretty new wire to the master cylinder and now have power there. Very Happy
Did not get connectors spliced to the wire to test MC switches yet (kids sleep duty etc) but will complete this tomorrow. Fingers crossed...but I bet this fixes it. Will update but, again, many thanks.


Thanks for the feedback, it helps us all. Good luck on your further tests and don't get discouraged if this first step doesn't fix everything. It may, and we can hope.

BTW, you can skip testing the MC switch for now. Simply join your new wire to the one that goes back to the 9 pin box by twisting the ends together (be sure they hang away from any body parts so there is no short or, better yet, tape the bare ends) and test for voltage at the 9 pin box.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Sdmjake
Samba Member


Joined: May 01, 2012
Posts: 124
Location: Sandy Springs, GA
Sdmjake is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will do.
Funny you mention skipping the MC switch test at the moment because I was looking at the list you gave me before i left for work this morning thinking it would be easier to do #5 with the wires in the existing state and i will know immediately if the problem lies in the 9pin. Guess I had an "a-Ha" moment after all. Thanks again for laying it out in simple terms.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
olliehank47
Samba Member


Joined: May 04, 2011
Posts: 1198

olliehank47 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sdmjake wrote:
Will do.
Funny you mention skipping the MC switch test at the moment because I was looking at the list you gave me before i left for work this morning thinking it would be easier to do #5 with the wires in the existing state and i will know immediately if the problem lies in the 9pin. Guess I had an "a-Ha" moment after all. Thanks again for laying it out in simple terms.


Actually, my wording may have been a bit hazy. My step 3 was intended to mean to do exactly what you discuss, join the wires together and check for power at the 9 pin box, but the way I worded it sounds like you are testing the switch. Step 4 is checking the function of the switch. It really doesn't matter how you perform the final steps, as long as you remember to turn on/off the ignition switch, when appropriate.

Good luck and we have our fingers crossed too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Eric&Barb
Samba Member


Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 20889
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
Eric&Barb is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do keep in mind that if the points in the distributor are closed while you test voltage with ignition switch turned to "Run" position with engine off, you could burn up the points after a few minutes.

To prevent this you could:

Remove distributor cap and hand turn engine till points are open.

Or remove small wire at coil that goes to the distributor and points.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DadaCheese
Samba Member


Joined: April 15, 2008
Posts: 643
Location: Richmond, CA
DadaCheese is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although it is NOT the fix you are looking for, I found that doing a complete re-wire of my '67 was very satisfying, and after having had enough electrical "fires" through the years as wires failed, it is a sensible thing to do if you have both the time and money.

To aid that process, I did a massive write-up to help folks that are thinking of tackling the project of a complete re-wire themselves.

It's food for thought, and here it is:
[my super-long write-up about doing a re-wire (with pictures!): http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5288797&highlight=#5288797]
_________________
----------------------------------------------------------
Dada as in dadaism.
Cheese as in the stuff I love to eat.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Sdmjake
Samba Member


Joined: May 01, 2012
Posts: 124
Location: Sandy Springs, GA
Sdmjake is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Dadacheese. I had read your amazing re-wire post a few weeks ago in my search for a fix. {I have printed out your write up and perhaps one day it will get pulled off!} Ultimately I would love to have all new parts in my bus but... $$$ is one issue [ain't it always] and my working knowledge of electronics is simply not sufficient to undertake this task. A man has got to know his limitations and this electrical stuff is all greek to me. I am learning and, Thankfully, the good sambanistas have spelled it out for me in the simplest terms and allowed for some fixes. With their (and Muir's) help, many wrongs have been righted in this ol' camper. Even the smallest fixes are so satisfying.
Now if I could just find the time to get at it---looks like my exciting Friday night will be a date in the garage with the ol Bus trying to get this done!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Sdmjake
Samba Member


Joined: May 01, 2012
Posts: 124
Location: Sandy Springs, GA
Sdmjake is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FIXED!
Thanks OllieHank--
the remaining tests went great. I did #5 [prior to #4] since i had the new brake wires sitting there and the 9pin relay was fine. Great test and a real relief. Wired up the MC switches and then everything lit up. Awesome! Very Happy
Since i was back there i added a 3rd brake light (24 LED strip) at the bottom of the back glass (just ran wire under weatherstripping to cabinet then dropped thru the closet) and spliced into the passenger side hot wire. It pulls so little juice(miracle of modern lighting) that it should be fine on 16 gauge.
Thanks again to everyone -> running new wire fixed everything and makes me feel a little better about the system going forward. Ye olde "Ounce of prevention = Pound of cure" kind of thing.
(Next up---new accelerator peddle/bracket/pin)
Any of you guys find yourself in North Atlanta come by for a beer. First round is on me!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
olliehank47
Samba Member


Joined: May 04, 2011
Posts: 1198

olliehank47 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulations on the fix! Always nice to hear of successes, especially with electrical issues. Enjoy your ride.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ToolBox
Samba Member


Joined: January 27, 2004
Posts: 2582
Location: Detroit, where they don't jack parts off my ride in the parking lot of the 7-11
ToolBox is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sdmjake wrote:
...Since i was back there i added a 3rd brake light (24 LED strip) at the bottom of the back glass (just ran wire under weatherstripping to cabinet then dropped thru the closet) and spliced into the passenger side hot wire. It pulls so little juice(miracle of modern lighting) that it should be fine on 16 gauge....


Your 3rd brake light will also be a big right turn signal the way you have it wired. You need to run a wire from the brake light switch to it for correct brake only function.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Split Bus All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB