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TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:39 am    Post subject: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

I keep talking about making a thread for this project but haven't done it. Here we go.

Backstory
I've had my '78 Westy for nearly 11 years. I've wanted to install a TDI motor for almost 10 of those... My dad had a '96 Passat TDI which he crashed a few years ago, and I quickly snapped up. The car sat at my house for like a year and a half, and after that the engine sat in my garage for another year, waiting for these boxes to finally arrive:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You can see the heart transplant patient waiting outside.

Here is most of the "kit" Mexican watercooled Baywindow parts!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


These arrived at the end of January, so at this point the thread is a bit of a catch-up.


Last edited by vwwestyman on Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ongoing Drivetrain Parts-Used List:

Factory Bus:
Transaxle, except for bellhousing and input shaft
Clutch Parts
Input Shaft/Pilot bearing
Clutch lever and mounting parts.

Mexican Bay Bus:
Bellhousing
Input Shaft
Carrier Bar
Brackets
Motor mounts
Oil Pan
Flywheel

'96 Passat TDI:
Motor
Starter, with modified adapter from
Karl at Westy Ventures


Last edited by vwwestyman on Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So my old bus is kind of rusty, and not original anyway, so I decided I'm not going to worry too much about making this install reversible. If you don't like that, too bad--Its my bus! Very Happy

Anyway, the current goal is to have the thing able to drive to Bustoberfest in October, then pull the engine/transmission again and have the transmission rebuilt/regeared.

I'll likely drive it as-is for some time after that, and eventually work on restoring/de-rusting the body after that. So I'm not planning to make it pretty in the process at this point.

As I said, I'm using parts from a Mexican Baywindow Bus to install the TDI motor. I originally thought that I could do it this way for less money than with adapter plates though this hasn't quite worked out to be true. However, I do feel that this will be a stronger system overall, and at least some of the engineering has been done for me by VW!

Back in February I took a week off work and removed the 2.0 gas engine and eventually sold it, and got started getting the engine prepped and such. This included things like putting in a timing belt kit, repairing the broken serpentine belt tensioner, etc. These things have gone on between February and now, but don't make for very exciting pics.

Because of the rust, and to ease installation and later maintenance, I decided to cut the rear apron and will later set up an apron similar to Type 1-powered buses.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Towels prevent head injuries!

Here is a pic of the engine mounted to the transaxle after the bellhousing was changed. Since taking the pic, I separated them, permanently installed the flywheel, clutch and starter, and put them back together. But that pic would be almost exactly the same so I didn't take another.

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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a pic of the Mexican Watercooled Bay bellhousing, taken as I was prepping it to install on the transaxle (mostly moving the clutch lever parts over from the bus bellhousing).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the starter adapter I used:

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This is actually developed to mount the TDI starter on a Diesel Vanagon bellhousing, so it required a couple modifications for my purposes. I removed the studs and drilled those holes open to 1/2 inch.

I then had to cut the ear with hole visible on the left side off so that it could rotate around. I then had to order longer starter bolts. The bolts now go through the starter, adapter plate, bellhousing, engine block to the nuts and sandwich it all together.
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last weekend I bolted the transaxle and engine together, installed the mounts and such, and jacked it up under the bus to see how things would look.

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I discovered that to get the top of the bellhousing at roughly the same height as the old bellhousing (and therefore the transaxle at the same angle, and engine at the correct level), there is about 35mm of gap between the bottom of the frame rail and top of the end of the carrier bar. I'll have to build some bracketry to hang it from.

That's OK with me, though, because as part of it I will beef up the frame in order to replace the rusted bits that are currently preventing mounting the bumper, and build a nice beefy trailer hitch.

And this is where the project is at this point.
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CoastalAirCooledVW
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Applause I have always wanted a TDI or 4BT Cummins powered bus.
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hill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CoastalAirCooledVW wrote:
Applause I have always wanted a TDI or 4BT Cummins powered bus.


A diesel bus YES, and the VW TDI would be the choice. I don't think a Cummins 4BT could fit unless the rear floorboard was raised up more than about a foot. That Cummins is TALL even if the crankcase were cut in half.
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am also hoping to come along a set of these babies:

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to make the gearing a bit taller. Anyone have any leads or info on how they'll fit the bus? The bolt pattern is correct (5x112) it is a 17x7 rim.

More info:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5587219-...ions[/img]
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levi20AE
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is the clearance in the front of the motor between the water neck and the fuel tank? Will you be able to use the divider panel? Other than the front apron what other sheet metal have you had to cut?
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CoastalAirCooledVW
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hill wrote:
CoastalAirCooledVW wrote:
Applause I have always wanted a TDI or 4BT Cummins powered bus.


A diesel bus YES, and the VW TDI would be the choice. I don't think a Cummins 4BT could fit unless the rear floorboard was raised up more than about a foot. That Cummins is TALL even if the crankcase were cut in half.


I guess I will have to use a barndoor bus for my cummins powered bus Laughing
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

levi20AE wrote:
How is the clearance in the front of the motor between the water neck and the fuel tank? Will you be able to use the divider panel? Other than the front apron what other sheet metal have you had to cut?


Unfortunately closer than I'd like. It doesn't quite touch the fuel tank, probably a little less than an inch of clearance.

I saw in one build thread somewhere one guy had a special outlet built with it pointing 90deg to the side. in another one the guy had the fuel tank cut and welded to make a notch to fit. These were both with adapter plates, and their flanges were closer to the tank than mine.

The Mexican bellhousing is deeper, so it pushes the flange away from the tank. I think I could pretty easily get away with smacking the fuel tank and cover with a hammer if i wanted.

Other options I've seen is blocking that outlet all together and sending coolant to the heater from a different source.

More investigation is due in this area.

I did end up cutting out most of the bracketry that the aircooled bellhousing hung from. The watercooled bellhousing doesn't use that mount. It might not have been 100% necessary to remove it but it certainly did clear up room.
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bonanzace
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are the rims you are looking for.
http://denver.craigslist.org/pts/3731751629.html
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neat! That torque should be awesome once you get it all together.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwwestyman wrote:
levi20AE wrote:
How is the clearance in the front of the motor between the water neck and the fuel tank? Will you be able to use the divider panel? Other than the front apron what other sheet metal have you had to cut?

in another one the guy had the fuel tank cut and welded to make a notch to fit.

Paulie's using an ALH TDI with the vacuum pump and the big coolant flange on the end of the head. An earlier diesel with the pump out of the block and flange on the side of the head wouldn't need the notch.
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tristessa
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

d/p

Last edited by tristessa on Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tristessa wrote:
vwwestyman wrote:
levi20AE wrote:
How is the clearance in the front of the motor between the water neck and the fuel tank? Will you be able to use the divider panel? Other than the front apron what other sheet metal have you had to cut?

in another one the guy had the fuel tank cut and welded to make a notch to fit.

Paulie's using an ALH TDI with the vacuum pump and the big coolant flange on the end of the head. An earlier diesel with the pump out of the block and flange on the side of the head wouldn't need the notch.


The vacuum pump is indeed on the block and not interfering.

It appears that with the engine at the right height, I could use the current coolant flange and it will fit under the seam of the fuel tank, though I don't think the fuel tank cover would fit as-is.

Does anyone know if a coolant flange from say a Rabbit is shorter than the current one with the coolant heater glow plugs?

Also the engine wiring harness connector will be in the way currently, but that shouldn't be a big deal to turn 90 degrees or something.
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stereodt
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

very interesting. i dreamed of 1 day swapping my 2.0L Jetta engine for a TDI as well. I attached a picture of my setup which uses a vanagon or mexican bay or South african bellhousing (had a lot of opinions on it.)
1 thing for sure the extra depth does provide the coolant outlet clearance neeed. you can see in the picture that my setup has a custom 90 deg outlet fitting which directs the colant hose out to the side so the fuel tank area panel can still be used without modification

looking forward to see what you intend to use for the radiator assembly, and exhaust!

I have the mexican Bay cooling system graphed into the front of my westfalia.

cheers
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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stereodt wrote:
very interesting. i dreamed of 1 day swapping my 2.0L Jetta engine for a TDI as well. I attached a picture of my setup which uses a vanagon or mexican bay or South african bellhousing (had a lot of opinions on it.)
1 thing for sure the extra depth does provide the coolant outlet clearance neeed. you can see in the picture that my setup has a custom 90 deg outlet fitting which directs the colant hose out to the side so the fuel tank area panel can still be used without modification

looking forward to see what you intend to use for the radiator assembly, and exhaust!

I have the mexican Bay cooling system graphed into the front of my westfalia.

cheers
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Where did you get that custom coolant outlet?

As I recall, that outlet goes to the heater core, correct?

Radiator: Still thinking about that one... I'm really hoping to somehow make engine compartment mounting work, like the Acura guy.

Exhaust: Should be pretty simple, the turbo does a good job quieting things. The Passat had a straight pipe the last couple years of its life and the engine was not noticabely louder at all. First try on the exhaust will likely just be a straight pipe out the back.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The custom outlet port was a fabricated & welded aluminum pc. made from some tube and plate. I will take a closer pic. of it and post. Yes I believe on the original Jetta donor car that outlet did run to the heater core, but I would have to recheck my bentley. I dont have a heater core in there yet, so that hose runs forward and connects into the radiator inlet circuit.

make sure to get a coolant expansion bottle from a late model VW as well and locate it as high as possible in the engine bay. before i did this the system wasnt de-aerating properly and due to air bubbling around was prone to running way too hot.

I will take a picture of my exhaust as well , which is very simple custom downpipe with a bend into a CAT and muffler across the back .
the CAT is empty of any core long ago.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwwestyman wrote:
tristessa wrote:
An earlier diesel with the pump out of the block and flange on the side of the head wouldn't need the notch.

The vacuum pump is indeed on the block and not interfering.

It appears that with the engine at the right height, I could use the current coolant flange and it will fit under the seam of the fuel tank, though I don't think the fuel tank cover would fit as-is.

I've got a blockoff plate on that flange and run heater coolant from the outlet between 3 & 4 on the cylinder head in my '75, which has a counter-flow 8V gasser in it (ABA block, 1.8L head).

I had to pull the fuel tank cover for clearance even with the flange blocked and the oil pressure port plugged, but it's an earlier 002 gearbox (shorter than 091 anyway) with an adapter. The Mexican bellhousing would give more clearance for sure.
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