Need help from suspension gurus - frozen ball joint adapter!

[RichBenn]

OK, I'm doing front end work, which is not my specialty.

This is a 2WD '84 with the stamped lower control arm, in which a ball joint adapter, the control arm, and the radius rod are bolted together with three bolts and locking nuts.

Problem is that two of the three bolts are frozen in there, and one is now missing a head. Nuts all came off OK, and my son finally managed to at least remove the radius rod using a little (propane) heat and a BFH, which allows me to replace the radius rod and downlink bushings.

Except, it would appear that I now have to do major disassembly in order replace the frozen bolts. I've done multiple applications of penetrating oil, used some of the new "freeze" type penetrating oil, and heated the parts as best as possible without access to an acetylene torch.

So:

1. Is there something else I can try?

2. If I have to get the lower control arm out, is this the right way(for my scenario)?:
a. remove brake caliper
b. press out tie rod end and lower ball joint
c. remove upper ball joint and remove spindle assembly
d. jack under lower control arm
e. pull shock absorber lower bolt
f. lower (control arm) jack slowly
g. remove lower control arm

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm kind of suspension challenged, but have been reading and searching a bit. Still, I don't want to get hurt or damage something due to my ignorance.
_________________
Rich

[RichBenn]

Help?
_________________
Rich

[r39o]

Chisel, grind, drill them off.....

You have to put to practice stuck fastener techniques which are hard describe because it just depends......

With out the proper tools and techniques you will never get the rusted or stuck fasteners and parts apart.

You may need a pro...

Pictures always help to get advise.
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)

[Vanagon Nut]

This happened to me too.

Along with r39o's comments maybe a press would work?

Resist the temptation to bang them out with a BFH. Doing this may mushroom the bolt which would get it stuck worse.

I managed to drill etc. to the point that I could get the adapter out of the arm, but those bits did not come out. I took the easy way out using a spare adaptor.

I know your pain!

Neil.

_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)

1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[RichBenn]

Thanks, Neil.

Grinding(cutting) the bolts off and then drilling them out is what my son suggested. Sounds like exactly what you did.

The adapter is no longer made, so I am probably going to have to remove the lower control arm anyway. So that's why I was looking for advise on how to remove. Seems like it would be the same as what one does for the later control arm.

I do have a 20 ton shop press, but am thinking that is not going to get it either. From your pic looks like the adapter is a solid piece, so that's a lot of surface area to be rusted together.

I'll put up pics later, so it makes more sense for others.

BTW, r39o, I have a good assortment of tools, including an air compressor, cut off wheels, shop press, several jacks, four jack stands, breaker bars, several sizes of torque wrenches, cut-off wheels, pickle fork, and now a non-destructive ball joint remover. Like I said, what I'm missing for "rusty thing" removal is a real hot torch and I don't have a lift, both of which "would be real nice" for this job.(My back is an old, stiff one) Sorry if I gave you the impression I was devoid of tools or experience.

I am inexperienced with advanced rust techniques, living in dry Nevada. Normally we squirt things a day before with penetrating oil, and fasteners just come off.
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Rich

[wyomingresident]

I was working on ball joints in my 84 Westy and eventually had to bring it in to get done professionally. I took it as a black eye- not fixing it myself- but the spindle was completely stuck. A no sweat job for a shop. Impossible in the driveway.

Know where the shade ends for the shade tree mechanic.
_________________
Don't tell fish stories where the people know you; but particularly, don't tell them where they know the fish.
Mark Twain

[Syncromikey]

I like the shock that's created by using a hammer but you really do need to consider the mushrooming issuers mentioned above. What I have done in the past to get around this is to put two nuts on the end of the bolt and tighten them up against each other. Have one nut stick up about a mm above the bolt. This way you are only hitting on the nut itself and you won't create a flange. Once the bolt is loosened you can just remove the nuts and pull it out. Make sure you support the base, like you would in a press so you don't bend the mount.
This shock method can shake things loose that a big press may not be able to.

Good luck!
Cheers,
Mike
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Love my Westy ...


My build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=528954

[RichBenn]

[RichBenn]

[RichBenn]

For whatever reason, the rotation info in the jpeg is not being read?

#13 is the problem part with bolts frozen inside:

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Rich

[BillM]

Rich
Pulling that control arm off is really the best way to attack this. I
would also suggest that you take the time to find the proper
replacement hardware your going to need. The chances of your
hardware store having the proper grade metric nuts/bolts
is pretty slim. I have been buying fasteners in bulk packs for the
past few years so have assembled a pretty good assortment that
has been a life saver many times. It does take some searching
around for sources and sometimes the dealer is the only choice.
Good luck getting that apart and back together.
_________________
Bill M
87 Westy

[Jake de Villiers]

You really need a proper torch for this kind of work, soldering tools just don't do the job.

Heat the offending fastener to a bright cherry red and all the oxidized adherent bonds are released as the fastener changes size.

Remove fastener with appropriate socket.
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7.5 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com

[Vanagon Nut]

Mike's comment reminded me of this. Just for a laugh....

I don't have a press so had put a bolt in the small depression I'd carved out of one remnant plus a piece on the other side to back it up and mounted all in my vice.

End result below.

Removing the LCA is no big deal.

It's been a while, and these notes should be taken with a grain of salt (as I was more of a newb then) but may shed some light on install as per your original post.

https://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/radiusarmnutnotes

https://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/frontsuspension



Neil.

_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)

1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[r39o]

Rich,

Yes, try the Gibbs (ATF + Acetone and beware the stuff leaks out of plastic squirt bottles when they sit, I have found!)

NOTE: You can do this sort of suspension stuff in your driveway. We repaired Mercedes double wish bone front suspension for many decades with the front of the car in the air and creepers / roller chairs. It is nice to be able to stick your head in the fender wheel to get at things.

Now you can ether pull the arm and drill the bolts or drill the bolts and use a slide hammer to yank the ends out. Any way you slice it you are going to have to drill now.

Further, you can spend MANY hours fighting this stuff. It can be a nasty job, There are times you will destroy fasteners on purpose too. Take an air wrench and zing the nuts off or heads of bolts off so you can drill less.

There are lots of "tricks."

Good Luck!
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)

[RichBenn]

Here is a pic with the steering tie rod and radius rod out of the way:

OK, a couple follow up questions: The Bentley shows one doesn't need a spring compressor - just support the spring when removing shock bolts and ball joint and then let it drop down. If so:
1) how long is the spring when decompressed(like how high a jack stand) and
2) am I better served renting a spring compressor rather than lowering the control arm all the way to avoid a bad angle on the upper ball joint (which I replaced only last year).

Vanagon Nut: Thanks for the links!
BillM: Yeah, It's a bitch finding metric hardware the right size in the proper grade.

Jake de Villiers - at this point, when I get it off, I'll take it to someone with a torch/other tools to see if it can be salvaged. Otherwise, it's a search for some replacement (including upgrading to the later cast arms/radius rod/downlink)

r39 - I was trying to avoid drilling while in there. Drilling out of the vehicle would seem easier, as I rarely go straight enough by hand and these are hardened bolts. Hopefully, the other parts to get it out won't be as bad to remove. I didn't fully understand your "slide hammer" post though - if I couldn't knock them out, why would a slide hammer work any better? (Note I've only used them for other purposes) Were you talking drilling the top, attching the slide to the bottom threads, then trying to pull?
_________________
Rich

[BillM]

You won't need a spring compressor. You can also put a ratchet strap
on the spring before lowering all the way to get a little more clearance.
Keeps it from expanding all the way. Have you tried to put a breaker
bar on the bottom nuts to see if they will either twist off or
twist the bolts going through the arm? I would try that while
someone hammers away at the top with a good size drift/hammer.
If the nuts just spin off double nut it.
_________________
Bill M
87 Westy

[r39o]

I want to make this short.

Never mind what I was thinking before, at this point you are sort of stuck taking the arm off from your description.

Stick a jack under the arm and loosen the shock.

Since you replaced the upper joint last year, it ought to come loose.

And I guess you got to pop the tie rod end too.

Or just pop the lower joint.

If needed, remove and hang the caliper aside with a coat hanger.

Lower the assembly.

Take arm off.

Go to bench or machine shop.
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)

[RichBenn]

[Gauche1968]

Interesting read. But how did you get the radius rod off once the bolts came off?
_________________
1984 Vanagon GL
1984 Vanagon Westy

[IdahoDoug]

Yeah, I'm curious how this ended as well. Loved the comment above by Wyoming about "knowing where the shade ends..." Ha - good one. I recently was stymied by a couple stubborn lower control arm bushings on the Quattro that had been in there 23 years. I was able to watch the shop struggle with it last week using a quality air hammer, and air chisel and lots of talent. Took them 45 minutes and I KNOW I'd have blown half a day on it plus possible fatigue on my hands.

That last is kind of something I've reluctantly had to start taking into account as I've aged. A few thousand hammer blows and a half hour of grinding away with a chunk of hacksaw blade in a Vice Grip used to be just something I needed to do when working on various car projects over the decades. Now if I get absorbed in something like that and habitually "keep at it" as is my nature, I may be so sore the next day I won't be able to grip strongly or work effectively on the project. So I've started taking things like stuck bolts to the pros and have had good luck with it.

So, how'd it turn out?

DougM
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1993 Toyota LandCruiser, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader