Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts New!  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
ANOTHER Syncro trans question
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
21-window
Samba Member


Joined: March 23, 2004
Posts: 248
Location: out planting
21-window is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:34 am    Post subject: ANOTHER Syncro trans question Reply with quote

I searched the interweb and here:

Do some syncros have aluminum trans cases and some have magnesium trans cases?

Which is better and why?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gears
Samba Member


Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4233
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
gears is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The low gear housing of all Syncros are aluminum. I believe the aluminum main cases and intermediate housing all originated in South Africa for added strength (to go with their larger engines).

While the mag alloy version is lighter and is said to have better "memory", the AL version resists ovaling in the two critical bearing bores subject to long term wear.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
21-window
Samba Member


Joined: March 23, 2004
Posts: 248
Location: out planting
21-window is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any way to tell for sure?

The one in my 86 appears silver in color

I got a spare one that appears grayish (mag color)

They definitely look different.

I want to get one rebuilt, but want to use the "correct" one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gears
Samba Member


Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4233
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
gears is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One way would be to use a file on both and burn/ignite the filings. Compare with known low gear housing (aluminum) and bell housing (mag) filings. You'll know pretty quick which are which.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
D Clymer
Samba Member


Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2946
Location: Issaquah, WA
D Clymer is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think any Syncro transmission cases were magnesium. They should all be aluminum. But keep in mind that a corroded aluminum case that has spent it's life in the salt belt will be grayish and look very different than a well preserved west coast example.

D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gears
Samba Member


Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4233
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
gears is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that the only aluminum section in U.S. Syncros is the low gear housing. The main case and intermediate housings are mag alloy. I don't know about Canadian imports.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SyncroGhia
Samba Member


Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2450
Location: Highnam, UK
SyncroGhia is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although they've been called Aluminium and Magnesium cases, they're more of an alloy of Magnesium and Aluminium and it's the varying amounts of this alloy which gives the different properties... not trying to teach you how to suck eggs or anything Laughing

I tend to refer to them as light and heavy cases... the heavy case being the stronger.

I have both heavy and light cases and they both work well. The light case tends to corrode more (more magnesium) and have to be replaced just because of this.

The weight difference can be a lot!

I have always tried to use heavy cases for my Syncros just to give them a fighting chance.

MG
_________________
T3 Syncro 16 S6 Westfalia Limey SOLD
T3 Syncro 6x6 SOLD
T3 RS6 Bluestar
T3 Tristar Syncro 16 SOLD
T3 Tristar Syncro RHD SOLD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger Gallery Classifieds Feedback
21-window
Samba Member


Joined: March 23, 2004
Posts: 248
Location: out planting
21-window is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks

I suppose I will have the "heavy" more silver looking trans currently in my syncro rebuilt.

Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
insyncro
Banned


Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15087
Location: New York
insyncro is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MG,
If you don't mind I am going to start using your description of cases.
Very easily unbderstood.
Well done.

dylan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bruce
Samba Member


Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 16849
Location: Left coast, Canada
Bruce is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

21-window wrote:
Any way to tell for sure?

Acid test!
Literally, not figuratively. Wink

Pour 1-2ml of vinegar on the suspected Mg part. Watch it for 3-5 min. If it starts to foam up, you have Mg. If it does nothing: Al.
_________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote:
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gears
Samba Member


Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4233
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
gears is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No mistaking the aluminum main housing when compared directly with the mag alloy housing. One weighs 13 lbs, while the other weighs 18 lbs.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
WWG1WGA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
insyncro
Banned


Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15087
Location: New York
insyncro is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gears wrote:
No mistaking the aluminum main housing when compared directly with the mag alloy housing. One weighs 13 lbs, while the other weighs 18 lbs.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Which is stronger and will not stretch as much as the other from higher torque engines?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
derekdrew
Samba Member


Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 219
Location: Far Northwest CT
derekdrew is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As some of you know, VW of South Africa, working with SDP, took over the development of improvements to the syncro gearbox starting in about 1991 after the gearbox began to experience failures when used with the more powerful Audi 5 cylindar engines that were supplied as original equipment on South African Vanagons.

The work that South Africa did to improve the transmission is of critical importance to us because many of us have moved to install more powerful engines, and the gearbox, without improvements, generally tolerates more powerful engines, especially powerful diesels, rather poorly.

You may know of syncro owners with more powerful engines who have transmission failures 10,000 to 30,000 miles after installing their new engines. Not everyone with these short mean-time-before-failures talks about it though.

In my view, all of these owners would be well to use the stronger All-Aluminum main cases and All-Aluminum intermediate housings (so called, 173 housings) that were created by SDP and VW of South Africa. These housings have less magnesium and are more of a pure aluminum mix.

(I also feel that all of these owners should install a temperature gauge inside or outside of their transmissions, but that is another story from what is addressed in this email.)

The purpose of this email is to alert readers to issues about the availability of the upgraded housings for the transmission.

Firstly, Daryl at aatransaxle.com http://www.aatransaxle.com/price_list.htm has some of the upgraded 173 housings, also known as "intermediate housings" of the stronger all aluminum design. There are pictures of them here: https://picasaweb.google.com/111803335891651546087/173Housings I don't know whether he is selling these alone or only in connection with a gearbox rebuild but I mention it because previous to now, these housings were not well known, and the 173 housing is a problem area. GoWesty is on an interesting track to advocate the use of a steel insert into the 173 housing and a rebuild procedure that seems pretty neat: http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23511&category_id=93&category_parent_id= I think they have in mind to put the steel insert into an older magnesium housing that is being rebuilt, but I think its possible that the strongest housing of all would be to marry their steel insert with the stronger 173 all aluminum housing. I don't know anybody who has actually done this. Longer term, if it is far in the future when you read this post, you can check to see whether Weddle has their own proprietary housing that they might be manufacturing at some point. At the moment, what they seem to offer is the upgraded all aluminum housing similar, or the same as, what Daryl has, here: http://weddleindustries.com/products/new-products/weddle-syncro-and-vanagon-parts

The matter of the 173 housings is somewhat familiar to some syncroists by now.

But what is really new is the arrival on these shores of the stronger all-aluminum main case housings. I wouldn't be surprised if Weddle has 10 of these and GoWesty 25. You can see them referred to here: http://weddleindustries.com/sites/weddleindustries.com/files/Van_Parts_site.jpg / http://weddleindustries.com/products/new-products/weddle-syncro-and-vanagon-parts and here: http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23941&category_id=253&category_parent_id= (select the optional locker option).

The main cases used to weigh about 13lbs in their magnesium alloy formulation included with all syncro transmissions sold in North America as original equipment. The stronger all-aluminum design versions weigh more like 18lbs.

It is possible that once these cases sell out, there won't be any more, and it has been a long time since they have been available here in North America, and were never available here officially to my knowledge.

My advice is, if there is one thing you should do if you own a syncro, and you have or plan to have a larger engine, it is to order one of these advanced cases NOW before they sell out.

The price of them is something like $600 or $700 on the moment, but I expect that after they sell out, they will go for $1,200 on Samba or more.

It is something of a MIRACLE that they are available and I don't expect this condition to last more than a few months.

The purpose of this email is just to generally help people who have syncros by keeping them informed of developments.

(cross posted to syncro list)
_________________
Derek Drew
derekdrew - a t - derekmail - dott - com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
IdahoDoug
Samba Member


Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10052
Location: N. Idaho
IdahoDoug is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good advice and timely for many. When I rebuilt my Syncro trans last year, I used the new aluminum main bearing section with the steel reinforcement. I liked the quality, the fit, and the design's intent. I can't be the only one??

Anyhow, agree - highly recomended. Planning to reduce the magnesium housing to shavings some day just to play with the pyrotechnics of mag shavings.
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2016 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential. 1988 Mitsubishi Van w/ dual spinny seats, mid engine and solid axle.1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1992 Lexus LS400, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa project in pieces, 2002 BMW 325iX
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vanagonjr
Samba Member


Joined: October 07, 2010
Posts: 2897
Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
vanagonjr is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deleted
_________________
John - 86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
LiMBO is on Facebook too! https://www.facebook.com/groups/
FAQ thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798


Last edited by vanagonjr on Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SyncroGhia
Samba Member


Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2450
Location: Highnam, UK
SyncroGhia is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
MG,
If you don't mind I am going to start using your description of cases.
Very easily unbderstood.
Well done.

dylan


No probs Smile

I like Dereks info on this. As always, top notch.

If I can, I will always use a heavy case. I would say that on a standard vehicle with absolutely no modifications at all... I can't see there being much difference but as soon as you start pushing it it will make a difference.

MG
_________________
T3 Syncro 16 S6 Westfalia Limey SOLD
T3 Syncro 6x6 SOLD
T3 RS6 Bluestar
T3 Tristar Syncro 16 SOLD
T3 Tristar Syncro RHD SOLD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MsTaboo
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 3184
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
MsTaboo is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what are the chances that there might someday be completely new, custom designed, Syncro transmissions? The market seems to be there.
How much would it cost to build a totally new transmission? Maybe even a five speed plus granny?
There are custom transmissions out there for race cars, etc. Why not for Syncros?
_________________
Currently:
90 Syncro Westy/Zetec
-Syncro, not just a sticker-

The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
You can lead a person to reason but you can't make them think.
The internet is like a toilet, useful but full of crap.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hans j
Samba Member


Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 2600
Location: Salt Lake City UT
hans j is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a completely new syncro transmission (brand new, all updated AL case and added internal goodies) Wink

It's probably going to cost quite a bit more for a brand new housing and gear stacks to be manufactured. Like stated before, the transmissions can last if not abused. I'm even surprised at how long some of the 5cyl diesel conversion transmissions have lasted! Gives me hope that I could have a 300,000+ mile powertrain installed in my van now Exclamation
_________________
1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pedrokrusher
Samba Member


Joined: July 11, 2011
Posts: 654
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
pedrokrusher is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MsTaboo wrote:
So what are the chances that there might someday be completely new, custom designed, Syncro transmissions? The market seems to be there.
How much would it cost to build a totally new transmission? Maybe even a five speed plus granny?
There are custom transmissions out there for race cars, etc. Why not for Syncros?


The market IS THERE!!!! How many people spent over 4k on their transmission? Lots more than most people think. I spent more than that on my 5 speed AAP with a 4.14 R&P, TBD differential, 0.77 5th gear and other details... And its not even a syncro.

The ones with the willing and power to do it are probably listening, and hopefully starting some plans as we speak to improve the syncro...

Mendeloa comes to mind? Anybody contacted them?
http://mendeolamotors.com/trans-proto/
_________________
Pedro
1989 vanagon Karmann Gipsy #652, TDI AFN
1991 vanagon westfalia conversion TDI ALH Silverfox
ex-1989 vanagon syncro passenger Syncrofox (Sold)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598791&highlight=
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493964&highlight=speed+aap+trans
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496589&highlight=carrier+bars
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=506025
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
insyncro
Banned


Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15087
Location: New York
insyncro is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would love to get a hold of the tooling for each case of the Syncro locker.

I know of a shop in CT that could easily reproduce these cases and make improvements.

I suppose if one was to purchase each aluminum case section and hand it over to them, they could go forward.

One pricey venture, for sure.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB