| Author |
Message |
Henrik_K
Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2013
Posts: 181
Location: Denmark
|
 Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:21 am Post subject: Where to use Permatex on type4 Engine... |
 |
|
I'm planning on putting my cylinders and heads on during the Chrismas.
I've seen Jack Ruby putting Permatex on the bottom end of the cylinders - but how about the top end?
Since my heads have been machined, Im planning on using the head gaskets to have enough clearance..
Thanks,
Henrik |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
timvw7476
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013
Posts: 2524
Location: seattle
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:24 am Post subject: Where to use Permatex on Type 4 engine |
|
|
Probably use Permatex where ever you choose, but.....
most apply it at cylinder base, with shim(s), spacers, or what
you need for piston squish area.
Sealants are usually deleted at the head to cylinder area,
head gaskets, or no head gaskets, lightly oiled threads & 23-24 ft/lbs torque.
Jack Ruby shot Lee H. Oswald, who may or may not of shot JFK.
Jack Raby is the type 4 engine developer applying Permatex.
My apologies for our unsettled national history.
Enjoy assembling your engine! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oscarsnapkin
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2013
Posts: 570
Location: Bucks County, PA
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Where to use Permatex on Type 4 engine |
|
|
| timvw7476 wrote: |
| Jack Ruby shot Lee H. Oswald, who may or may not of shot JFK. |
They played in a band together too.
_________________
- 1977 CEI Sunroof Bus 2.0L F.I. Hydraulic Lifters
- 1973 Thing
"It’s so easy to laugh, it’s so easy to hate, it takes strength to be gentle and kind." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42958
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
RTV at the cylinder base.
I use a little copper coat on the top of the cylinders before the heads are put on. Many of us lap the cylinders first to be sure that the surface is even.
_________________
 Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23530
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Where to use Permatex on Type 4 engine |
|
|
| oscarsnapkin wrote: |
| timvw7476 wrote: |
| Jack Ruby shot Lee H. Oswald, who may or may not of shot JFK. |
They played in a band together too.
|
Oh thats excellent! 
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Oil Phil-M
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2005
Posts: 547
Location: Vancouver, BC
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
For the cylinder - head interface you do not want to use the gaskets. Even VW themselves told their mechanics to stop using them. If you need more clearance you have to shim the cylinder from the bottom or it some cases you can have the pistons shaved. I did the later as I had dished pistons and needed to increase the compression ratio.
When it came time to assemble I used some copper based high temp permatex spray form-a-gasket stuff. I think at first I tried the brush on version but it was too difficult to get it evenly applied
http://www.permatex.com/products-2/product-categor...ant-detail
Once I figured out which cylinder was going where, I lapped the head with the cylinders using ajax with just enough water to make it a paste. Work all the cylinders evenly (same pressure, same number of rotations). After thorough cleaning spray the cylinder head's cylinder mating surface with this copper stuff. Make sure the spray is done evenly then I believe I gave it a very short dry time before assembly.
This gasket stuff is designed to seal the head for a bit of time while the carbon buildup is developing inside the combustion chamber which has a further sealing effect |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52739
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Where to use Permatex on type4 Engine... |
|
|
| Henrik_K wrote: |
I'm planning on putting my cylinders and heads on during the Chrismas.
I've seen Jack Ruby putting Permatex on the bottom end of the cylinders - but how about the top end?
Since my heads have been machined, Im planning on using the head gaskets to have enough clearance..
Thanks,
Henrik |
If yours is a 2.0L engine, 94mm bore, you don't want to use sealing rings on the heads. With the earlier 1.7 and 1.8L engines the sealing rings were not a big problem, but are usually deleted anyway. The cylinder base gaskets can be had in different thicknesses to give the deck height you want. Machining the heads doesn't affect deck height unless they had a step originally, it does affect head volume. You want to keep the deck height from being excessive as too big a deck will give disappointing performance. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7439
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Volume 8 Bug Me Video is now 15 years old. Sealant development has come a long way in that time, PLUS we wanted to use something in the video that was easy to get.
Today I use Dreibond 1248 on cylinder bases.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Henrik_K
Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2013
Posts: 181
Location: Denmark
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks guys,
Sorry about the misunderstanding of US shooting-history 
I just curious; Why is no head gaskets more important on a 2.0 than 1.7/1.8 ? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12843
Location: San Jose, California, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Tcash wrote: |
Sunken Valve Seat
|
Good example of a 2.0L head gasket failure as well. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23530
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SGKent wrote: |
RTV at the cylinder base.
I use a little copper coat on the top of the cylinders before the heads are put on. Many of us lap the cylinders first to be sure that the surface is even. |
Do you like to let it tack up or dry or just install it wet? I understand the carbon seal benefit. Previously I have used Indian head in this same way with good results.....but if the head comes off for any reason....it pretty, much takes bead blasting to remove it cleanly.
Does the coppercoat come off any easier? Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42958
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
RTV at the cylinder base.
I use a little copper coat on the top of the cylinders before the heads are put on. Many of us lap the cylinders first to be sure that the surface is even. |
Do you like to let it tack up or dry or just install it wet? I understand the carbon seal benefit. Previously I have used Indian head in this same way with good results.....but if the head comes off for any reason....it pretty, much takes bead blasting to remove it cleanly.
Does the coppercoat come off any easier? Ray |
If the head is lapped then the coating is so thin it easily comes off. The copper particles are so small they are almost microscopic. Anything that carbonizes would work I think. It is just added protection. Usually I re-torque the heads the next day before putting the tin on, and if they come off one can see where the cylinders have indented the aluminum so it is probably overkill. Also, if the engine is ever out and the tin off I will re-torque the heads as a precaution in case they have loosened from heating and cooling cycles.
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 13629
Location: West Coast, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Henrik_K wrote: |
I just curious; Why is no head gaskets more important on a 2.0 than 1.7/1.8 ? |
The 94mm pistons (2.0) had clearance/scuffing issues due to uneven heat expansion of different metals. Eliminating the gaskets brought the head heat to the cylinder walls quicker so the expansion rates of all components would be more coordinated.
Robbie
_________________
WTB: 215mm Type 4 flywheel. Cash in hand.
One-on-one tech help for your vintage Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com
Road trip reports and tech blog:
https://www.patreon.com/airschooled |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7439
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
The factory head gaskets are comprised of 3 thin (.007") aluminum folded over each other. When the engine gets hot and goes through thermal shock the head studs can loosen.
Once this happens cylinder pressure and heat will torch the head gaskets, then the cylinder head, then the cylinder.
I haven't used a head gasket since the mid 90s, and never will again.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23530
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SGKent wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
RTV at the cylinder base.
I use a little copper coat on the top of the cylinders before the heads are put on. Many of us lap the cylinders first to be sure that the surface is even. |
Do you like to let it tack up or dry or just install it wet? I understand the carbon seal benefit. Previously I have used Indian head in this same way with good results.....but if the head comes off for any reason....it pretty, much takes bead blasting to remove it cleanly.
Does the coppercoat come off any easier? Ray |
If the head is lapped then the coating is so thin it easily comes off. The copper particles are so small they are almost microscopic. Anything that carbonizes would work I think. It is just added protection. Usually I re-torque the heads the next day before putting the tin on, and if they come off one can see where the cylinders have indented the aluminum so it is probably overkill. Also, if the engine is ever out and the tin off I will re-torque the heads as a precaution in case they have loosened from heating and cooling cycles. |
Thanks. I lap my cylinders in. I guess its just the indian head. It leaves a film either way...actually more of a discoloration. ....and very thin but you can tell its still there.
I will try the coppercoat on this next engine. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12843
Location: San Jose, California, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Here's one for you. I was watching a program about building a air cooled airplane engine.
They applied sealant to the case. Then they laid down two pieces of thin silk thread and joint the cases.
I remembered years ago, splitting a case and finding thread and thinking what the heck.
The program brought it altogether for me.
Any thoughts on this process?
Thanks
Tcash |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7439
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
Been doing that for years... Waxed dental floss split in half works wonders too.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 53222
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Tcash wrote: |
Here's one for you. I was watching a program about building a air cooled airplane engine.
They applied sealant to the case. Then they laid down two pieces of thin silk thread and joint the cases.
I remembered years ago, splitting a case and finding thread and thinking what the heck.
The program brought it altogether for me.
Any thoughts on this process?
Thanks
Tcash |
http://www.lycoming.com/Portals/0/techpublications...alants.pdf
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
