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NJ John Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2007 Posts: 2234 Location: HdG, MD & NJ
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Is the black box also a captive discharge system? As in, it replaces a MSD box? _________________ 1973 standard, yellow, lowered, 3” narrowed front, 1600 blo-thru turbo w/single dell 15.4@86, so far
11.41 et buggy. Long gone
Let’s go O’s! Let’s go O’s!
https://www.youtube.com/@AirSpooledGarage |
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slayer61 Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2021 Posts: 1018 Location: CA
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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No John. It's just another way to control timing. No boost in voltage
From the CB website
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The Black Box connects to ignition points, aftermarket ignition modules such as Compu-fire and Pertronix, MSD distributors, CB Performance Magnaspark 2 Ready-to-run and Magnetic Trigger distributors. Most aftermarket ignition boxes can also be used such as MSD 6A, 6AL, 7AL, Summit and Mallory. |
_________________
Cusser wrote: |
... Most folks are idiots when it deals with electrical !!! |
67rustavenger wrote: |
3/4 race cam? What's missing, one of the lobes? |
Paul
'68 Manx clone... Sears??
2276 built on AS21 case
W-125 w/ GB 1.25:1 rockers
Mahle forged pistons
CB 4340 crank
CB H beam rods
deep sump
44 HPMX
EMPI GTV 2 STG II wedge ports
CB Magna spark
1 5/8 merged collector w/ hater stinger |
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NJ John Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2007 Posts: 2234 Location: HdG, MD & NJ
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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I thought it was too good to be true. All in one BTM is like $700 nowadays. _________________ 1973 standard, yellow, lowered, 3” narrowed front, 1600 blo-thru turbo w/single dell 15.4@86, so far
11.41 et buggy. Long gone
Let’s go O’s! Let’s go O’s!
https://www.youtube.com/@AirSpooledGarage |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4029 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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NJ John wrote: |
I thought it was too good to be true. All in one BTM is like $700 nowadays. |
Just bite the bullet and buy a MS based system.......you know you want to.....
Run it in ignition mode only if you desire.
Microsquirt is a nice compact and water proof system but does have I/O limits plus it needs an external Map sensor.
The wiring is simple if you use an IAT and CLT sensor along with the Map sensor.
Run a crank trigger and never worry about ignition again........it is truly a non issue. _________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
Paul.H wrote: |
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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Lo Cash John Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004 Posts: 2246 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Has anyone thought about using "flying magnet" crank trigger to fire the black box?
Basically you set 2 magnets into the pulley (only 2 because crank turns 2x the distributor speed), then use an MSD sensor on a bracket to detect the magnets passing. This puts out the exact same signal as the MSD Pro Billet distributor with magnetic pickup. Wiring it would be the exact same as the "Magnetic Trigger Coil Wiring" schematic included with the instructions.
The advantage here is you can set the crank sensor where you need for correct timing THEN twist the distributor to the proper position to optimize rotor to plug wire terminal alignment.
Tiny little rare earth magnets are cheap on Amazon. The MSD sensor is about $110 or so. That's some extra cost but you gain a lot. No more timing scatter due to distributor drive gear slop (the distributor angle no longer effects the spark timing event), no more rotor alignment issues, you can use a big cap distributor and not worry about point float because there are no modules for that unit (I don't think there are ignition modules for that unit) and you can wow your friends. _________________ www.LoCashRacing.org
More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!
If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com
My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
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NJ John Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2007 Posts: 2234 Location: HdG, MD & NJ
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Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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clonebug wrote: |
NJ John wrote: |
I thought it was too good to be true. All in one BTM is like $700 nowadays. |
Just bite the bullet and buy a MS based system.......you know you want to.....
Run it in ignition mode only if you desire.
Microsquirt is a nice compact and water proof system but does have I/O limits plus it needs an external Map sensor.
The wiring is simple if you use an IAT and CLT sensor along with the Map sensor.
Run a crank trigger and never worry about ignition again........it is truly a non issue. |
I think about it constantly. I have been just trying to stay simple and old school. I would have saved a bunch of money if I just went MS from the beginning. _________________ 1973 standard, yellow, lowered, 3” narrowed front, 1600 blo-thru turbo w/single dell 15.4@86, so far
11.41 et buggy. Long gone
Let’s go O’s! Let’s go O’s!
https://www.youtube.com/@AirSpooledGarage |
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daos Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017 Posts: 309 Location: Stockholm, SWE
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Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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there's a new system out from debbies aircooled. not much more expensive - if it had been available when i bought my BB i wouldn't have thought twice. |
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Lo Cash John Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004 Posts: 2246 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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I know a guy with the system from Debbie's Aircooled. He's been struggling with it a lot. Issues MIGHT be installation related but I can't say for certain yet. _________________ www.LoCashRacing.org
More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!
If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com
My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
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daos Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017 Posts: 309 Location: Stockholm, SWE
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Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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would be interesting to hear more about it, seem a bit thin on the ground currently. don't doubt it'll be too long before they have their own thread though. |
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slayer61 Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2021 Posts: 1018 Location: CA
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Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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daos wrote: |
would be interesting to hear more about it, seem a bit thin on the ground currently. don't doubt it'll be too long before they have their own thread though. |
It's been done...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=779284&highlight=crank _________________
Cusser wrote: |
... Most folks are idiots when it deals with electrical !!! |
67rustavenger wrote: |
3/4 race cam? What's missing, one of the lobes? |
Paul
'68 Manx clone... Sears??
2276 built on AS21 case
W-125 w/ GB 1.25:1 rockers
Mahle forged pistons
CB 4340 crank
CB H beam rods
deep sump
44 HPMX
EMPI GTV 2 STG II wedge ports
CB Magna spark
1 5/8 merged collector w/ hater stinger |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4029 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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daos wrote: |
there's a new system out from debbies aircooled. not much more expensive - if it had been available when i bought my BB i wouldn't have thought twice. |
There is nothing new about his system. It just uses cheaper parts and it's a copy of a tried and true setup that's been in use for more than 10 years.
I myself have Mario's hidden crank trigger with MS ECU and I'm on my 10th year with it installed.
I've never had an issue with ignition and it's not even something I bother thinking about.
When you have an ECU controlled ignition you can set your idle and advance curve to whatever you want. You also have logging ability plus you have safety's built in that you can set for intake temp and boost retard.
It's well worth the money and you will never worry about ignition again.
Make sure you wire it correctly. The best thing is just order the Harness you would need from Mario at the same time.
You could always check with theDubshop.net... he might even have some used ECU's for sale.
As others have stated....the cheapest price is not always the best buy......
YMMV. _________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
Paul.H wrote: |
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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allamaabroad Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2016 Posts: 560 Location: South Jordan, Utah
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Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:01 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Lo Cash John wrote: |
I know a guy with the system from Debbie's Aircooled. He's been struggling with it a lot. Issues MIGHT be installation related but I can't say for certain yet. |
Since you're bringing it up again, how is he doing? I haven't been able to get a hold of him in a while. I know his flywheel got completely fubar'd by that aftermarket starter setup.
Also to once again shed light on the situation here, the installation was retro fitting a CB Performance Gen 3 EFI system to one of my ECU's. IMO the install was rushed. The old (somewhat questionable) CB harness was used, a few things were wired incorrectly/backwards, and the wrong type of injectors were used for some period of time. The ECU worked flawlessly when it left my possession.
Last I talked with this customer, I offered to do a once over on the ECU and fix any components that may have gotten damaged due to the above circumstances. _________________ Dennis - 1973 Super Beetle ('16-'21)
Debbie- 1970 Baywindow Bus ('21 - Present)
Tin top camper/adventure bus
2180 TW: CNC Panchitos, Beehives Done Right, Web 163, Ultralight Lifters, 1.3 Rockers, CSP Python, Custom Speeduino EFI Conversion with 40mm Throttle Bodies
Distributors are lame
I have a really hard time leaving things alone...
Innovative and affordable engine management systems and EFI conversions for your Vintage VW
Visit https://debbiesaircooled.com/ |
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boxer74 Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2011 Posts: 710 Location: Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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FreeBug wrote: |
I run the wide rotor tip which came with the Vanagon distributor I use. That works with the Digifant, where the computer creates advance/retard as needed, with a fixed pickup point for the Hall efect. I figure, the Vanagon Digifant creates a wide range of advance/retard, and uses that rotor, so it should be fine for me. |
Interesting. Is this 86-91 vanagon distributor already locked out? No mech/vac advance and uses the ECU? Maybe this could just work as is with black box and EFI kits? _________________ 74 Super
84 Westy |
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3450 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2024 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Anybody have any ideas about what would cause timing jitter with the BB? I get 2 degrees random, with spikes to 4 degrees, advanced, at idle. Take the BB out, run a locked out big cap at 14 idle. Rock steady, less than 1 degree.
Did this test 4x, on 2 motors now, same thing.
Hot and ground for the BB is direct to the battery.
I added a separate ground to the distributor body as well.
No point wires near the plug wires. BB is about 18 inch from motor. Idle timing matches the dashboard good.
Just put in a fresh set of resistor plugs, new plug wires and did a valve adjust. No help.
Tried a wide tip rotor, like magnaspark has. No change.
I also redownloaded the standard single carb file. No change
Dwell is 50. Idle is about 900 Rpm My dashboard says its version 2. If someone can check theirs please?
Im out of ideas and ready to dump this thing – no trust in it. BTW I spent 44 years in electronics so I have some experience there, if that matters
It starts and runs “ ok”, but the jitter is unacceptable to me |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7229 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3450 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2024 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Its just the standard single carb map that comes with the bb. I havent changed anything. Im not using manifold vacuum - just want timing control |
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jimmyhoffa Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2014 Posts: 1059 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2024 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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I have the exact same problem. Mine ONLY happens at idle though. Is that the case for you as well?
My strategy when it warms up is to just start shielding and grounding random things that I think might matter. I'm sure you know this being in the electronics industry for 3x as long as me, but if you fail some noise tests for something on a machine for UL and pay the test lab to fix it, they solve the problem the same way. As a young pure engineer I used to think that the UL lab techs were like some sort of interference and noise gods, but they just try shielding stuff and putting chokes on suspicious wires and grounding stuff until it shuts up and then they send you a ridiculous invoice. _________________ 1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous. |
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3450 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Since the distributor is the only common denominator here, Im gonna try another, although I don’t think that is the issue, but we’ll see. Its freshly rebuilt with a good set of SMP points
Also, I have a 2nd BB, that Jeff Paull gave me few years ago. He suspected it of having issues with it randomly dying. It gives me the same idle timing jitter.
Im also going to reinstall all the CB S/W on my laptop, in case by chance I have an old file
Maybe other guys have this issue and either don’t know or don’t care? I think it’s a design issue myself, but I don’t know what circuitry is inside, so cant speculate on that
I did make this nifty bracket to mount it on a 36hp air cleaner bracket to mount to the existing fan shroud holes
Last chance for the bb or you are outta here!
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BFB Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014 Posts: 1762
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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chrisflstf wrote: |
Its just the standard single carb map that comes with the bb. I havent changed anything. Im not using manifold vacuum - just want timing control |
You’re not using vacuum? Just running the BB based off of rpm ? _________________ Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3450 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Yep, plan was to add manifold vacuum with a CB vacuum ref kit for the dcoe later. The bb is currently on a mostly stock carb motor, centermount, used motor I have for testing. Ive had the bb on both motors already
Ive been wondering if its points bounce the bb is seeing, causing the jitter ?
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2040.htm |
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