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Heckrazr
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2011
Posts: 52
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 Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:45 pm Post subject: Left inside tie rod end.... |
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Hey,
Anyone have a source for the left inner tie rod end?
Either it's NA or 160 bucks when all the others are under 20.
What gives?
Dave
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D/A/N
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 2233
Location: 11222
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:03 am Post subject: Re: Left inside tie rod end.... |
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| Heckrazr wrote: |
Hey,
Anyone have a source for the left inner tie rod end?
Either it's NA or 160 bucks when all the others are under 20.
What gives?
Dave |
So....um....how 'bout those classifieds? Depending on the year you need, I see $45 or $40 shipped
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?...ton=Search |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23150
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Left inside tie rod end.... |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
| Heckrazr wrote: |
Hey,
Anyone have a source for the left inner tie rod end?
Either it's NA or 160 bucks when all the others are under 20.
What gives?
Dave |
So....um....how 'bout those classifieds? Depending on the year you need, I see $45 or $40 shipped
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?...ton=Search |
Is that the odd one with a 9°angle built in? Is it right or left hand thread?
I cant remember all of the type 3 part #s but I had the same issue over the summer rebuilding the front end of my 412 which uses largely the same tie rod ends as the type 3 just in different positions.
The major players in the industry....meaning the better brands.....? Moog, flennor, Delco, Raybestos etc.....have quit making the 9° bend version. Until earlier this year the TRW/Moog version of the ES419R and ES419L....right and left hand thread versions....were available in both straight and 9° angle but now they only make straight.
I ordered no less the four joints listing the 9° angle from different mfgs and consistently got the straight one.
The only sure bet I found was ISP....and the brand/quality was unknown....and the cost high. I did not care about the cost within reason.....I really wanted a specific build quality level (original springless TRW.....very tight, very precise).
Rockauto lists a left inner for $21. If it needs to be the 9° angle joint....and you get a straight one.....you can call them back and explain that it was a manutactuer, change and they will issue a credit and shipping voucher.
If you need the 9° angle joint.....and can find quality straight ones.....I have a solution I can post pictures of later. Its not dirt simple but its excellent.
TRWMoog noted over the phone that they....and other manufacturers.....are rapidly dropping obsolete/old, specialty angled tie rod ends.....especially those that are primarily inner tie rod ends....with smaller thread diameters.....from manufacturing because there are few (in the big picture) users of them.....and virtually "0" new cars are built anywhere that use inner tie rod ends. Virtually, everything is rack and pinion.
The larger diameter threads for industrial and larger truck they still make.
So....that means if you are readily finding the angled tie rod end.....its made someplace stranger than Brazil, Mexico or India.
Ray |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4507
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:59 am Post subject: Re: Left inside tie rod end.... |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
| Heckrazr wrote: |
Hey,
Anyone have a source for the left inner tie rod end?
Either it's NA or 160 bucks when all the others are under 20.
What gives?
Dave |
So....um....how 'bout those classifieds? Depending on the year you need, I see $45 or $40 shipped
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?...ton=Search |
Yep. They're super easy to find... |
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eyetzr 
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2013
Posts: 1469
Location: Toronto, Ontario. Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:09 am Post subject: |
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X2 just had a peak, type in 'tie rod', hit search & found a bunch. $40.00 to 65.00 euro.
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I think he meant "rare", as in "not well-done" |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23150
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:56 am Post subject: |
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As I noted.....if they are the 9° angled variety.....and you consider them super easy to get now....then get two. I just spent most of June and July researching the angled tie roe end. It is no longer manufactured by Moog, Delco, Flennor, Ocap or any of the major brands.
If you are paying more than $25 for one....then you are paying for existing old stock. I refrain from calling them NOS because most were produced in the past couple of years. The lack of future availability or the need to special order in batches is why the price is high.
Another note.....I have some NOS ball joints and tie rod ends that are about 15-20 years old in the box. The boots will rot off in that time frame. Its no big deal on tie rods because you can buy any outer tie rod end even from a modern car for in the $12-18 range and just scavenge the boot.
Lastly....make sure that if it is the 9° bent tie rod....that what you are buying has that bend. The vast majority I have found for sale on the classifieds listing as for the position of the bent tie rod end....are not, correct.
These are not easy to, find. Ray |
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13546
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| hey Ray, which cars actually require the angled tie rod end? I've heard some people say they used the straight one when they couldnt find the angled one |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23150
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Erik G wrote: |
| hey Ray, which cars actually require the angled tie rod end? I've heard some people say they used the straight one when they couldnt find the angled one |
Good point. For years I rolled with the straight tie rod ends even though my 412 requires both inners to be angled. Steering lock not an issue depending on brand and its construction.
For example in July when I could not find good quality bent ones....I bought a pair of Flennor straight tie rod ends and I had an Ocap I had just received..... and I had an NOS TRW from the 90s to compare angle capability.
The Flennor has great construction....but 2° less angle capability than the TRW....but they were both good enough for angle. However....the Ocap brand was missing about 5° compared to the TRW or Flennor and will bind on my car at full lock.
This causes short life for the joint. Not unsafe I dont think...but it beats the crap out of the outer lip.
The other critical problem to me....is that without the 9° angle.....at full lock the boot is over extended. With just a little bit of age....the boots crap out very quickly....killing the joint in wet weather.
As I noted... I rolled for years with straight joints.....on a DD 412 pushing about 80-100k miles a year in Texas.....and I had to replace the tie rod ends......inners.... a bout every 12-16 months due in the beginning to the joint being beat out because of not enough angle rotation. Once I went to TRW joints that issue went away.....but the boots as they hardened up ripped on the stretched side.....always.
Get the angled rod ends if you can. Ray |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 23034
Location: Northwest of Normal
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:55 am Post subject: |
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I'm not a Type 4 eggspurt so I'll defer to Ray on that, but ALL Type 3 cars require the angled left inner end. There's a difference in the OE Type 34 and "regular" Type 3 on the angle.
The problem with using the straight end is that it will wear out very fast as the wear angle is wrong. You can also expect to chew up tires because even if the car is aligned perfectly with it at rest, the bounce angles and steering angles will be off.
It's not as bad if the car is lowered, but lowering the car is tough on all suspension components as well as tires as they're designed to wear the least and last longest at factory angles.
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
Those who can- do.
Those who can't? Subaru. |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4507
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:17 am Post subject: |
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TheSamba classifieds is but one of the many, many places in which to find these tie rod ends for a Type 3. They're usually on eBay, in other forums, Facebook groups, etc.
I've had a harder time finding decent reflectors than these tie rod ends. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23150
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
I'm not a Type 4 eggspurt so I'll defer to Ray on that, but ALL Type 3 cars require the angled left inner end. There's a difference in the OE Type 34 and "regular" Type 3 on the angle.
The problem with using the straight end is that it will wear out very fast as the wear angle is wrong. You can also expect to chew up tires because even if the car is aligned perfectly with it at rest, the bounce angles and steering angles will be off.
It's not as bad if the car is lowered, but lowering the car is tough on all suspension components as well as tires as they're designed to wear the least and last longest at factory angles. |
Yes....spot on. That is the exact same set of issues with type 4 as well. In my experience....they came with a 9° angled tie rod end for a good reason and you should use them. Ray |
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13546
Location: Tejas!
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4507
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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They sub in a lot of parts that don't always fit correctly but 'good enough'.
The part number from the book:
311 415 818
Tie rod end, angled 9
to Ch. No. 317 500 000 |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23150
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
TheSamba classifieds is but one of the many, many places in which to find these tie rod ends for a Type 3. They're usually on eBay, in other forums, Facebook groups, etc.
I've had a harder time finding decent reflectors than these tie rod ends. |
Not really.
As I noted....the devil is in the details....especially when you start ordering them. Also....if there are a lot on the classifieds and ebay right now....you are lucky. Things come and go and change fast.
If you are buying them by the exact part #....from a VW vendor or person. ...you may be getting exactly what you want. As I noted...from June through July over a two month period.... I scoured the classifieds, ebay and all of the large VW parts outlets.
Except for ISP....no one had the bent tie rod end....WITH THE CORRECT THREAD DIRECTION....in stock.
I cant tell you how many sites I found that list these tie rod ends by both the mfg part #....and quote in a nice table....which applications it fits and list the correct type 3 prefix part numbers........only to find out its not the correct bent tie rod end.....or the correct bent tie rod end with the wrong thread direction.
Also I cant tell you how many listings I found that actually showed a picture of the correct bent joint....but did not actually have the bent joint.
TRWs catalog was like this. When I called them on it....they said...sorry...we quit making that last year and forgot to change the picture.
I actually loosely, started looking for tie rod ends in March. I went full bore into it in june.
I ordered no less than 13 tie rod ends over 6 weeks before getting the correct ones of good quality.
All I can tell you is do not trust part #s on boxes shown to you by sellers here or on Ebay. Call and ask. You will be surprised how often they have been reboxed. This is common because there were and are very few cars that use this tie rod end.
Most of what you are buying havecbeen laying around in peoples collections or are obsoleted stock. They get boxed up in whatever is laying around.
Ask questions....angle....thread direction.....manufacturers markings. Ray |
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eyetzr
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2013
Posts: 1469
Location: Toronto, Ontario. Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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If you think you have found good ends & you are happy with them contact the manufacturer & let them know. We had an incident with some truck body parts that were changed up, we let them know that the new stuff was crap & they went back to the old type. Apparently nobody complained & they thought they were doing a good job. It may not work in our small end of the VW world but always worth a try
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I think he meant "rare", as in "not well-done" |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4507
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
TheSamba classifieds is but one of the many, many places in which to find these tie rod ends for a Type 3. They're usually on eBay, in other forums, Facebook groups, etc.
I've had a harder time finding decent reflectors than these tie rod ends. |
Not really.
As I noted....the devil is in the details....especially when you start ordering them. Also....if there are a lot on the classifieds and ebay right now....you are lucky. Things come and go and change fast.
If you are buying them by the exact part #....from a VW vendor or person. ...you may be getting exactly what you want. As I noted...from June through July over a two month period.... I scoured the classifieds, ebay and all of the large VW parts outlets.
Except for ISP....no one had the bent tie rod end....WITH THE CORRECT THREAD DIRECTION....in stock.
I cant tell you how many sites I found that list these tie rod ends by both the mfg part #....and quote in a nice table....which applications it fits and list the correct type 3 prefix part numbers........only to find out its not the correct bent tie rod end.....or the correct bent tie rod end with the wrong thread direction.
Also I cant tell you how many listings I found that actually showed a picture of the correct bent joint....but did not actually have the bent joint.
TRWs catalog was like this. When I called them on it....they said...sorry...we quit making that last year and forgot to change the picture.
I actually loosely, started looking for tie rod ends in March. I went full bore into it in june.
I ordered no less than 13 tie rod ends over 6 weeks before getting the correct ones of good quality.
All I can tell you is do not trust part #s on boxes shown to you by sellers here or on Ebay. Call and ask. You will be surprised how often they have been reboxed. This is common because there were and are very few cars that use this tie rod end.
Most of what you are buying havecbeen laying around in peoples collections or are obsoleted stock. They get boxed up in whatever is laying around.
Ask questions....angle....thread direction.....manufacturers markings. Ray |
No conjecture or hyperbole: I have had zero issues finding the correct inner left early tie rod ends for my early-ish (64/65) cars.
The early inner left tie rods have, more or less, been in the classifieds of this very site for over two years. For a car that's 50 years old I'd call that a decent availability of parts. I've purchased a few and they are in excellent condition and functionality. I've also purchased from sources in Germany, a random guy on eBay and eBay Germany. All of them work properly. Most are Lemforder branded, some are not.
What car do you have that needs inner left tie rods? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23150
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="ataraxia"][quote="raygreenwood"]
| ataraxia wrote: |
TheSamba classifieds is but one of the many, many places in which to find these tie rod ends for a Type 3. They're usually on eBay, in other forums, Facebook groups, etc.
No conjecture or hyperbole: I have had zero issues finding the correct inner left early tie rod ends for my early-ish (64/65) cars.
The early inner left tie rods have, more or less, been in the classifieds of this very site for over two years. For a car that's 50 years old I'd call that a decent availability of parts. I've purchased a few and they are in excellent condition and functionality. I've also purchased from sources in Germany, a random guy on eBay and eBay Germany. All of them work properly. Most are Lemforder branded, some are not.
What car do you have that needs inner left tie rods? |
Lemforder is an excellent brand.....if what you are getting is actually Lemforder made in Germany...and not lemforder of Germany...made in China. 
Same problem with Flennor brand....many have had issues (its killing the later model water cooled BMW, Mercerdes and VW crowd) with the quality.
For what I bought (which did not fit anyway)...the quality appeared to excellent. They were cheap enough that I kept one and dissected it to see how it was built.
1. with type 3 early takes a different tie rod end than late. Early is easy to find as it fits many bug, some Porsche 912 and a few other cars.
2. I actually have a type 4....which takes two of the same part #'s for tie rods and type 3 and one for bug but just has them in a different order than on those cars.
ISP west stocks the correct bent joint....and I would have been simply happy to spend the excessive cost they want for them...but they could not answer as to what brand and quality. I wont pay top dollar for "I don't Know". On type 4's when your tie rods suck...other less replaceable parts wear out.
Personally...I was the same way with my type 3. GOOD parts are not getting any easier to find for those either.
Also...quality matters.
I did not really know there was a great deal of difference in tie rod construction until I started going back through 20 years of notes on lifespan and failure of certain tie trod ends .....and talking to the manufacturers over the last 6 months or so....and sectioning about 10 joints just for giggles and grins.
Its huge....and its changed alot....and what modern cars require...is different than what our cars may require.
A few examples :
1. The basic design most tie rod ends use is a two-piece cup inside of nylon...held together by spring force from behind under the back cap.
The problem with these is that if its cheaply made....one tie rod end can be very tight...one might be very loose. Why is that a problem ?...in a minute...
2. The cheaper crappier ones have a "half ball" meaning that the top of the ball is flat so the spring has a seat to sit on because there is no top cup or not a full one. The problem with these is that if you turn the ball too far the spring unloads and jams sideways....joint is then shot.
So they make these with limited angle rotation. If you need that...,like if you are using a straight tie rod end instead of a bent one....you are screwed
3. From the late 70's through about 3-5 years ago (I think)....the state of the art for our cars and most older cars....was the TRW joint....which had solid block of nylon 12 that was molded with the spherical hole for the ball and an opening in the front of about 45-50 degrees. The ball stud had a full ball. It snapped into the front of this nylon cup...which was then dropped into the steel shell from the back...form fitting...pressure greased....then the back cap was clamped on tight with a press....then a hammer type press was used to swage the outer edge around....water tight.
No spring.....no need. The joints are tight as hell and the nylon never wears out. The only way you can destroy one of those TRW joints is to rip the boot and get water and grit in there. You cannot install a grease fitting on one of these. They are truly permanently greased.
The tight fit is awesome for steering precision on air cooled vw and most Porsche's.
The problem with this type of joint....and why they quit making them....is that they are expensive to make.....and they cannot be used on very modern cars.
Why?....because cars from about 2004 on that use (Like most European cars now) electric power steering...have torque programming in the ECU. If the joints are tighter than the spec range they were programmed with....the steering gets...screwy. Same if the joints get too worn out or sloppy.
Also alot of the power steering pump type units that are late model also have torque sensing. Big problems.
If you read the factory literature on most of the joints these days....all of their big claim to fame is about..."smoothness" and "equal torque" require for turning from one joint to the other. Most new joints are very loose in torque compared to what these cars came with.
Buy the best you can and be picky unless you like realigning all the time.
In short...the manufacturers are starting to phase out older joint designs. New cars do not require inner tie rod ends at all (different on rack and pinion).
If you don't drive your car too much like a lot of people and only get around to worrying about your tie rod ends every 5 years....you may have a problem in five years. Ray |
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gregson1
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2004
Posts: 464
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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I just sent off a bad '64 left inner Type 34 tie rod end for reproduction. The Type 34 uses a special 'steering drop arm' that is different than the regular Type 3 which necessitates the use of a a special 20 degree left inner tie rod end. Either they match it up to something else readily available, or they make me some ends. No word yet on pricing.
Along with brakes, steering is another area where I've decided not to scrimp. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23150
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| gregson1 wrote: |
I just sent off a bad '64 left inner Type 34 tie rod end for reproduction. The Type 34 uses a special 'steering drop arm' that is different than the regular Type 3 which necessitates the use of a a special 20 degree left inner tie rod end. Either they match it up to something else readily available, or they make me some ends. No word yet on pricing.
Along with brakes, steering is another area where I've decided not to scrimp. |
If you are not looking for dead on factory original but need functionality that does not scrimp.....the solution I used for the 9° bent tie rod ends is this. Its hard to describe so I will psot pictures later after work.
1. I could get quality unbent tie rod ends....so I did.
2. I cut the threaded section off at exactly 1" stub.
3. I bought 1 foot of 1" chromoly hex bar from mcmaster carr.
4. I cut two 3" pieces of hex bar....drilled the end next to the tie rod itself....straight in, tapped it....inserted the long cut off thread piece....drilled through it and pinned it in with a 1/16th roll pin.
5. I cut and ground the opposite end of the hex bar next to the inner tie rod end stub. ....at a 9° angle ...and drilled the hole at a 9° angle and tapped it.
6. I screwed in the tie rod end stub until it bottomed....and drilled and cross pinned it.
So.....I made my own adapter for using straight tie rod ends at the correct angle. I trimmed 5h3 tie rod on the outer end by the same length that I added of hex bar and threaded them deeper.
It took about 4 hours to make. Adjusts just like normal....and with 1" thick cromoly hex bar...no worries about strength. It actually looks good as well.
Ray |
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Heckrazr
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2011
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Ok,
Went to ISP and got all my ball joints and 3 of the tie rod ends.
Found a guy on here that has 2 left Niners so I bought one.
I will check it out and post after I receive it.
Thanks all for the insight.
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