Rear Lift and CV's

[DanGreen]

I've decided I'm going to cut a 1/2" notch in my spring plates and turn them a couple splines to get the most lift out of the stock parts. People have been telling me that the stock cv's wont handle the angle and to get bus joints. Is this all I have to worry about?

[62ragman]

That should be the only problem. Remember the type 2 CVs don't mount to the type 1 flanges though. Make sure your shocks are long enough so they don't top out and break apart.

[vwclass11]

Dan, I have been running notched spring plates for the last 3 years. I notched them about 2 inches. I ran Type 1 cvs but they lasted a year, now I have thing flanges and modified Type 1 stub axles, running Type 2 cvs. The only problem I have is that when I make fast turns I can hear my cvs clacking, but thats it. I am driving a street legal class 11 bug.

[DanGreen]

When I jack up my car and the spring plates hit the stop I'm getting about 2" of lift. The cv's dont look to be too much at an angle but I really want that extra clearance. If I go for more lift by notching them then I'll defenitly need cv's. I'd rather put that money towards a low gear tranny for the time being. Thanks for the info! Are their other ways to install bus cv's? And what exactly is a type 11?

[netnut]

Dan,
Your best bet would be to go to a Bus (Type 2) trans and CV joints. There are many ways to accomplish this and many kits available. Some are solid mount and some are not. Some mount the trans nose cone in the tunnel, some require cutting a hole in the floorpan and you must run the shift shaft above the tunnel. I prefer to keep it in the tunnel. If you call Suspensions Unlimited 714-630-4482 (no website) in Anahiem they can hook you up with the perfect mount for conversion to Type. It places the nosecone in the tunnel and uses urethane to isolate everything. It is $150 and well worth it.

My Dad and his friends have been using this mount for years after breaking many others. They all run 2.3+ Liter Type 3 laydown engines and have never broken one.

Now for the CVs. Many advertisers in the mags have stub axles that fit a bug and have a Type 2 flange. There is even and advertiser in the Samba classifieds that makes them. This is what my Dad does. He has a lathe and turns both of the stubs down to cut the flange off of a bus and bug stub and then welds the bus flange onto the bug stub. Never broken one of these either. You can buy new CV for $35+ each from most places.

Then the axles. By far the best out there are the Sway-a-Way. They are $119 new with a lifetime warranty. Most advertisers carry these as well. Just tell them what you are doing (Bus trans into Bug) and they will know the size (15.? inches.

If you get a 3 rib trans (three ribs visible above the output flanges) most of these are 5.37 gear ratio. This will allow you to run 31 or 33 inch tires without any trouble.

Let me know if you have any more questions. If I don't know the answer I will ask my Dad. He has been involved with off-road VWs since 1960 at least and still runs a Baja at 60+ yrs old to places most people would not even consider with a 4x4.

[62ragman]

Hey netnut, welcome. nice to have new people add their knowledge! That trans mount you mentioned is the one I am getting from McKenzies, about $20 cheaper than straight from the manufacture. This mount not only keeps the shift rod in the tunnel, but sets the trans and engine at a 10 degree slant for a little more ground clearance.
Dan; keep your eyes open in SAMBA, I picked up a good used three rib(002) bus trans and 1600cc engine for less than 4 bills yesterday. A lot of HVWS advertisers sell the axles that netnut suggested.

[DanGreen]

Thanks for the info ! I'm still not sure what I'm going to do. I have about $1000 for the trans, axles/cv's, mounts, cable and work. I'm not goin to be doing the work myself otherwise I'd spend it all on parts so scince I put it that way I actually have about $700 for parts. With the setup youre talking about I doubt I'll have enough money. Someone left a Low Gear Beetle Transmission in the local bug shop and they want to sell it for $450 with the mounts. If I get that I"ll have $250 left over which I hope is enough for a descent pair of modified axles/cv's. I'll probably need to buy a new clutch too. Do you guys think I'll be able to buy all the parts I need with $700 ? Oh, If I did get a bus tranny and it's installed so the nose points in the tunnel will I need a new shift box?

I've got a 74' standard beetle with bug eye kit, 1600cc stock 34Pict3 and stinger exhaust. All stock mostly...

[62ragman]

If it were me, I'd keep saving my money and look for a bus trans. Stock, the bus trans is lower geared and much heavier duty. Besides you still have to buy different out drives for the bug trans to use type2 CVs. If you get a bus trans you would only need to buy the new mounts, CVs, axles and stub axles, then its just a matter of bolting it all together. Check on the general parts for sale page here on SAMBA as there was a guy selling a bunch of bus stuff for real cheap! Good luck!

[DanGreen]

Does it matter what year all this stuff is? I found a great deal for a complete set of used bus axles/cv's from a 70' ..... $60 plus shipping. What year are the 3 rib usually?

[62ragman]

Not a bad price for the axles and cvs, can you inspect them before you buy? If they are too far away, have the seller take a picture of the cv rotated open to see if the cages are beat oval or the balls pitted. Also have them take a picture of the axle splined ends to see if the splines are not damaged. The bus axles won't work with stock bug trailing arms as the bus trans is much wider. You'll need to get 2x3 arms for them to work, or buy the sway-a-away axles. The 3 rib or 002 bus trans is '68 to '75 and the 5 rib or 091 is '76 to '79 I believe, been wrong before though.!?

[DanGreen]

Ok, so whats the setup I can use if I buy a 3 rib tranny and have stock beetle everything else? Bus cv's check, and then what? What about the stub axles that netnut mentioned? I'll have to talk to him about that. Oh, and about the tranny... If I choose the mount that points the nose in the tunnel will it hook up to the existing shifter? Is that meant to be the purpose?

[62ragman]

OK, here it is. Here is what you need;Bus box, bus cvs, reworked stub axles(like the ones netnut talked about), Sway-a-way's bus into bug special axles, trans mount into tunnel and retain stock shifter(meant to be). With this you would have one heavy duty drive train on your baja. Check Transform's ad, I remember them having a complete package that had all the pieces for something like around $500, but use the in the tunnel mount, a much better set up.

[Daily Driver Bajabug Guy]

Don't notch springplates! Your IRS rear suspension will look much like an overlifted swingaxle. You like driving fast? More of a reason not to do it. The camber is way off center & you won't corner worth shit anymore. Also those expensive offroad tires will wear uneven as hell(outside edges). If anything just set the springplate preload to 24-25 degrees(not the axle angle) if you are running stock arms & cv's. Want a cheap lift? Get a boxed in trailing arm kit or if you don't/can't weld just go for a 2-3 inch bodylift, not as good but at least it saves your fenders from getting smashed up by you tires when bottoming out. Limit straps help too.

For Constant Velocity Joint Info go here:

http://www.blindchickenracing.com/How_to/CVJoints_Axles/cv_joints_101.htm

Don't just take someones word for it. Bugs get ruined all the time because of misinformation. Research it yourself. Learn to use a search engine like google & talk to more than one experienced VW based off-roader & never a chevy/ford/international(scout) man. They will f**ck your bug up, They hate bugs as it is.

Hope this helps.
_________________
1963 Body on 1973 Pan - 1600 DP - Linkpin/IRS with no bump stops

[DanGreen]

thanks, I'm going to take your advice and not notch the spring plates, I think I'll stick with the cheapest solution and preload the spring plates. I wont have to buy bus cv's either! Bad news and good news, the good news is I baught a new wiring kit and the bad news is I have to pay some guy to rewire my car with it and i'ts going to cost me $400 to $600! That means No More Tranny Thanks for all your help guys! Nothing left to do but get smaller tires and preload the spring plates. Have any of you gone out to the dunes or mud with small tires? I'm talking about size 215/75/15 and smaller, in inches I'm talkin about a tire anywhere from 27"diameter by 7.5" width to 28"diameter by 8.5"width.

[62ragman]

Hey phatman, not to be rude or anything , but just something to think about. If you notch the spring plates, they still move staight up and down, not rotating on a single pivot point like swing axles do, no twisting just straight up and down in the same single plane they always do. This does not effect camber of the rear end, actually it helps relieve some of the tension of the preloaded bars to allow for a little better ride, more droop with out such a sudden stop. This is where the limit straps come into play. I agree, the boxed trailing arm kit would be of help to stiffen the stock arms to reduce flex, always a plus. But a body lift? Only raises the body, but does nothing for the ground clearence problem. I feel the money saved would/could be used elsewhere wiser. Besides, thats why they make the raised rear fender set up. Another thing to consider is if you are smashing your tires into the body all the time, your torsion bars(most likely stock) and/or shocks are too soft and not doing their job properly. There are so many variables to look at. This isn't my first rodeo, I've been doing it for awhile, but I don't know all the answers.
I most definately agree with your advice to avoid the guy in the ford/internatioal/chevy. I've always felt if you need 4wheel drive you can't drive or don't belong there anyways.
See all this and no jokes about the Inland Empire.LOL

[Daily Driver Bajabug Guy]

62 Ragman:

I used to think that too...On a stock arm setup. The Pivot Brackets arn't even close to straight(cockeyed outward). Thus the camber won't ever be at zero especially if you notch the springplate. Not only that, but it makes them weaker, easier to bend or even popout of the stops & really cause some damage to your springplate and possibly even bend up your arms 4 bolt mount plate. Also, have you looked into how much the stock cv's will allow? preloading between 24-25 degrees already leave you with no more room. The germans didn't leave you much of anything to play with; You're already maxed out at 12 degrees, You might have half a degree more at the most. Granted you can go beyond that by notching your springplates or stop even, but your cv's will die very quickly & you won't hear the end of that clanking sound that we all have heard at least once in some type of car if not a bug. Think of the large steel ball bearings being slammed back into the housing everytime time the rotation reaches downward when just driving on the street alone; The faster you go the harder it slams & it scores your ball bearings & may even break your CV cages. Enough on CV's...

Just look here: http://www.blindchickenracing.com/How_to/CVJoints_Axles/cv_joints_101.htm

The reason I say go with the body lift is because the raised rear fender setup requires you to drill out new holes above the old ones. This is something I'm totally against since it will be ruining a VW for good. Besides chopping the whole back end off & replacing the front apron with a baja nose. You can't undo these holes even if you brazed it back up later. You can cover it up, But it just won't be the same. If you don't care about that then fine. Go nuts. Chop away even more than is required. I never liked seeing those old bolt holes not in use.

I'm not shashing my rear fenders. But if you ever ran on the stock fenderwells & arms with 30+ tires you most likely remember how close you were from touching. Especially with the amount of travel that is still availible. Ground clearance is the only problem, I agree there...always. But if you run an offroad dual cannon exaust or some other type of tucked away exaust & a full length rear skidplate you won't have much trouble with the rear. It will be fine. Just don't go over any big rocks straight down the middle of the rear & you won't smash up your skidplate or engine case.

By the way: Whats wrong with the Inland Empire? I live up at the hills of the IE 2 minutes away from Cucamonga Canyon. Days of rough trails up here buddy! You can even make your own trails now that the brush has been burned up after the fires that hit up here just last year a few months ago.
_________________
1963 Body on 1973 Pan - 1600 DP - Linkpin/IRS with no bump stops

[62ragman]

Phatman,
After reading some of the other answers to other threads you have posted, and seeing you admitt to blazing new trails after the fires have taken thier toll on the local hills,erosion in particular, like we don't have enough problems with the authorities as it is. Yeah, I used to ride dirt bikes up in that same canyon before the homes were built. I will back down, refusing to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person of your caliber. 'Nuff said.

[DanGreen]

Peronally I think people should use the trails that are already available being legal or not. No need for new trails, there are allready plenty of them. I dont like seeing new ruts up in the mountains because someone thought it would be fun to do. I try and respect the land as much as I can.

My friend and I have argued about the irs and swingaxle suspension many times and never settled anything. He use to own an oval with swing axle so he thought every bug did the same when raised. When I got my bug with irs I noticed the tires would come straight down when I jacked it up unlike the swing axle. He disagreed with me for some reason and let me tell you, you dont want to get into these kind of arguments when your drunk. Maybe if you take the 3 bolts out and let the trailing arm hang without being attached to the spring plate, then I could see why it might do what swing axles do. I dont know this for a fact but with my limited knowledge on vw's it makes scence to me. So far 62ragman has been very helpfull with all the questions I've had and I strust he knows what hes talking about when it comes to vw's.

I do think taking a notch out of the spring plates will weaken them some but the main reason I dont is because I'd rather spend my money on other things not on cv's and axles. If I were to raise it any more I know I'll have to buy bus cv's etc...

[62ragman]

Thanks Dan. When you get your baja rewired let us know how she runs.

[62ragman]

Ran across this on another forum. Great father/ son project, hopefully ours will be as nice. www.chirco.com/projectbaja/bajahome.htm It has some good pictures of the rear lift with stock rear arms and notching the spring plates. I would have left the longer torsion bars, less violent wrap up than the shorter bars, but does allows for bigger tires. Too cool!!