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corbin_dunn
Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2010
Posts: 52
Location: santa cruz, ca
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 Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Volks Wagen wrote: |
| I would start checking the motor to see if that has moved out of it's jig or alignment. It's basically shafted 2 trannys... so the common thing is the motor and it's placement/support etc. AND the tranny mounting. Perhaps it's vibrating, twisting, bearings(?) or something loose... I can imagine the torque... are the tranny frame arms twisted? Maybe if you horse up a few more pics showing the setup of the motor it's mountings to the trans etc? |
Hi Volks Wagen,
Yeah, the general consensus seems to be it is out of alignment...I'm just not 100% positive how to check things. I'll probably have to make some jig to do the checking and adjust my motor mount holes.
To be clear, it isn't shafted 2 trannys -- The last one was working fine, and just a little noisier than I though it should be.
-corbin |
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corbin_dunn
Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2010
Posts: 52
Location: santa cruz, ca
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| ROCKOROD71 wrote: |
Your first mistake was going with a company halfway across the continent when there are easily half a dozen reputable tranny rebuilders in California. Now you've likely doubled your cost with shipping when you could have driven the busted unit to the shop where it came from. Despite cost, when dealing with engines and transmissions, going local is always a better option. Ask me how I know! |
Yes, I now realize it was bad. Any advice on what might be wrong?
corbin |
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ROCKOROD71
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 2770
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:33 am Post subject: |
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I mean, the theory is it is out of alignment right? post some pictures, the forum can help a lot more if we can see what it looks like. Does the motor just hang off the tranny like a stock motor? Are you using a stock bellhousing? where did this adaptor plate come from? How much does the electric motor weigh? etc etc etc
_________________
1971 STD BEETLE- DD-1st car, 1st love. keepin' it stock! 1600DP, Solex 34-3 Mexi Bosch SVDA Dist NOW w/POINTS
1977 WESTY "KrustyKamper" 2L FI
| 79SuperVert wrote: |
30 years from now, the next guy may not want your girlfriend, but he may want your classic car, depending on how nice you were to it. |
| asiab3 wrote: |
Careful guys, a petulant child can grow up to be president these days. |
**winter drivers: no survivors!**rust warrior**#keepbodyshopsbusy** |
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corbin_dunn
Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2010
Posts: 52
Location: santa cruz, ca
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ROCKOROD71 wrote: |
| I mean, the theory is it is out of alignment right? post some pictures, the forum can help a lot more if we can see what it looks like. Does the motor just hang off the tranny like a stock motor? Are you using a stock bellhousing? where did this adaptor plate come from? How much does the electric motor weigh? etc etc etc |
Yeah, the theory is that it is out of alignment; it is sounding like that is the problem; one person told me that if it was out of alignment that it pushes the main seal around and lets oil through. Makes sense.
Pictures: sure, I have a lot.
Motor/transmission: http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2010/10/plug-bug-motor-installed/
And a video of the entire process to remove it:
https://youtu.be/V99PpX_6cR8
Particularly around the 20 minute mark. That shows everything.
...but I don't think those really help with understanding why it happens. I could be wrong! The fact that it is electric is more of a by fact than anything else; I still use the clutch. Just the thing that drives the main shaft is different. Of course..the alignment *could* be an issue.
I bought the adapter plate from an EV shop; I didn't make it, but it would have been easy to fabricate. The motor hangs off the transmission, just like an engine. The motor weighs a few hundred pounds; less than the gas engine for sure. I'll gladly provide answers to any questions that might help solve this!
thanks,
corbin |
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Dougy Dee
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2004
Posts: 1707
Location: Niagara Region, CANADA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Do you have pics showing how you are supporting the end of the input shaft?
I couldn't find any in your pics in your linked blog... |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4407
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:51 am Post subject: |
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^^ +1 Please show a photo of your pilot bearing (behind the clutch disc) ..
_________________
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9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
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ROCKOROD71
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 2770
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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first, listen to gears, he is your tranny guru, your best bet at solving your problems. Pilot bearing is another piece to the puzzle.
Just a thought after looking at your pictures: In the first few you mention a "balancing point" This may be something to examine. The german engineers, in their infinite wisdom, had it figured out as to where to put the engine/transmission hanger. Even if the gasoline engine is heavier, how is the weight distributed? The pressure plate, clutch and flywheel are pretty heavy on an ACVW engine and they are closer to the center where the hanger is. Even if your motor is lighter, if there is a lot of weight on the rear side it is putting exponentially more force downward on the motor. Think of it like an axe, even if it is a 5 pound axe if the handle is 6 feet long its hard to lift it up level and hold it there....
Again, just spitballing here, maybe you need some support on the outside (rear) part of the motor?
_________________
1971 STD BEETLE- DD-1st car, 1st love. keepin' it stock! 1600DP, Solex 34-3 Mexi Bosch SVDA Dist NOW w/POINTS
1977 WESTY "KrustyKamper" 2L FI
| 79SuperVert wrote: |
30 years from now, the next guy may not want your girlfriend, but he may want your classic car, depending on how nice you were to it. |
| asiab3 wrote: |
Careful guys, a petulant child can grow up to be president these days. |
**winter drivers: no survivors!**rust warrior**#keepbodyshopsbusy** |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5733
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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A good look at the pilot bearing or bushing, along with the shaft adapter it's in, would help understand the setup. I suspect there is a length issue, where the input shaft is butting up to the end of the motor shaft as the adapter is tightened down. I don't see how slight misalignment (up, down, left, right) will cause any short term problems unless the error is large -- the stock setup is not very tight tolerance. Oil leaks would be easiest to cause by having the input shaft run slightly eccentric to the motor shaft. That usually causes out of balance noise.
The motors we are using are 100 lb. or more lighter than the stock Bug engine. I have no rear support and I have not heard of any Bug conversion having rear support. This should only be an issue if the adapter is allowing flex.
_________________
| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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pb_foots
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Joined: April 15, 2010
Posts: 1089
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
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Volks Wagen
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2013
Posts: 2927
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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So, the folks at Apple and Tesla cannot successfully put an electric motor in a beetle. Come on, you've got to fix this.
_________________
1973 1303 with AB-motor - sporadic
reconstruction as time permits, 1986 ex-Bundeswehr Doka - on the road again.
I'm definitely, probably, the worlds greatest lover.
Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile. |
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pb_foots
Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2010
Posts: 1089
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Tesla could make that car go 150 MPH, and Apple could make you line up all night for the next version of it that's almost exactly like the current one.
The PO however, is having issues. I merely pointed out that he has very smart friends. The average IQ at Mariani 3 is just slightly higher than average.  |
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Volks Wagen
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2013
Posts: 2927
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| pb_foots wrote: |
Tesla could make that car go 150 MPH, and Apple could make you line up all night for the next version of it that's almost exactly like the current one.
The PO however, is having issues. I merely pointed out that he has very smart friends. The average IQ at Mariani 3 is just slightly higher than average. |
The way I understand this is that the electromotor shaft has the flywheel mounted.
So, either the flywheel is not on straight and perpendicular to the shaft and centred on the shaft or it is.
Then there is a pilot bearing in the flywheel/motor/shaft assemply also centred.
Then there's the adapter/mounting plate between the motor and gearbox - to check for centres alignment between both the gearbox and the motor, the adapter plate can be attached one at a time to the motor or the gearbox, and the centre of each shaft measured relative to 3 points on the mounting plate to give a 3D point within the bellhousing where the gearbox input shaft sits; or alternatively for the motor, where the pilot bearing sits... BOTH of these points should coincide within VW tolerances. If not then the adapter plate needs to be remachined.
The fixings for the adapter plate should be rock solid.
Finally the clutch and pressure plate should be attached and centred using a clutch centering tool for about $8. Assuming that none of the components are MASSIVELY out of balance then that should do it right?
_________________
1973 1303 with AB-motor - sporadic
reconstruction as time permits, 1986 ex-Bundeswehr Doka - on the road again.
I'm definitely, probably, the worlds greatest lover.
Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile. |
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corbin_dunn
Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2010
Posts: 52
Location: santa cruz, ca
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Yup! It's been charging at IL longer than any of those others existed (except the roadster). |
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ROCKOROD71
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 2770
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:59 am Post subject: |
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Any progress on the tranny issues? Inquiring minds want to know.....
_________________
1971 STD BEETLE- DD-1st car, 1st love. keepin' it stock! 1600DP, Solex 34-3 Mexi Bosch SVDA Dist NOW w/POINTS
1977 WESTY "KrustyKamper" 2L FI
| 79SuperVert wrote: |
30 years from now, the next guy may not want your girlfriend, but he may want your classic car, depending on how nice you were to it. |
| asiab3 wrote: |
Careful guys, a petulant child can grow up to be president these days. |
**winter drivers: no survivors!**rust warrior**#keepbodyshopsbusy** |
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corbin_dunn
Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2010
Posts: 52
Location: santa cruz, ca
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:01 am Post subject: |
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Hi Volks Wagen (and others),
Thanks for the replies! I don't have any pictures of the adapter shaft (pilot bearing part) on hand. Next time I take it apart I'll be sure to take some pictures of it.
Here is a blog post on what I did:
http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2015/10/plug-bug-try-3-with-the-transmission/
Indeed, the adapter bolt holes don't quite line up. I never had a real issue with this before (I got ~39,000 miles out of it this way), but for some reason it is causing issues with this newer transmission. So (as seen on the blog), I used my mill to trim out one hole, and align everything really well.
I also installed a new main shaft seal; the previous one definitely had some damage to the spring underneath it.
I only have about 55 miles so far, but it doesn't seem to be leaking (knock on wood). Time will tell if this worked or not.
If it doesn't work, then I have a feeling it is the location of my pilot bearing and/or flywheel that is causing the problem.
Thanks again everyone for the help!
corbin |
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Volks Wagen
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2013
Posts: 2927
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Good progress. Is it now running with the noisy tranny or the previously leaky tranny?
_________________
1973 1303 with AB-motor - sporadic
reconstruction as time permits, 1986 ex-Bundeswehr Doka - on the road again.
I'm definitely, probably, the worlds greatest lover.
Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile. |
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corbin_dunn
Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2010
Posts: 52
Location: santa cruz, ca
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Volks Wagen wrote: |
| Good progress. Is it now running with the noisy tranny or the previously leaky tranny? |
It's the "previously leaky" transmission, which was a fresh rebuild. So far I have about 300 miles and it isn't leaking. I'm pretty sure it was leaking by this point. So, alignment was likely the issue.
Thanks again for the help from everyone! I'm a happy VW driver again. (And this one has zero emission scandals).
corbin |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| corbin_dunn wrote: |
| Volks Wagen wrote: |
| Good progress. Is it now running with the noisy tranny or the previously leaky tranny? |
It's the "previously leaky" transmission, which was a fresh rebuild. So far I have about 300 miles and it isn't leaking. I'm pretty sure it was leaking by this point. So, alignment was likely the issue.
Thanks again for the help from everyone! I'm a happy VW driver again. (And this one has zero emission scandals).
corbin |
So there was nothing wrong with the transmission we built? This was all an alignment issue?
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4407
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:22 am Post subject: |
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I have to ask the OP .. Are you leaving this transmission in 2nd gear, and revving the motor to kingdom come?
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5733
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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The DC motors used in most home built EVs really don't rev that high, with a rev limit typically between 5000 and 7000 rpm. Series wound motors often have peak power down in the 3000 rpm range and a best efficiency a bit above that. So I'm going to guess he runs it similar to the way I do, 2nd gear from 0 to around 45 mph, 3rd gear from there up to around 70 mph.
_________________
| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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