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TDI upgrade to GT2052 Turbo - anyone try it?
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tclark
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:45 pm    Post subject: TDI upgrade to GT2052 Turbo - anyone try it? Reply with quote

I have had a k03, later a K03/K04 hybird turbo on the van,
the K03/K04 I had on now has excessive end play 1/4 inch or so oooch ...

I thought I was going to move to the vnt17/22 set up but a lot $$, srcing parts from europe & general headache...

I was looking around on the net and saw reports of ahu owners moving to a larger wastegate Garret GT2052
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=360678

I am curious if anyove with tdi in van has tried this
I did see a post from westyventures + mTDI but justa single post & install note no longer term feed back... or detail parts list

Anyone go down this route with eTDI && a vanagon
-what do the EGT's look like
-how was acceleration
-when does boost kick in
parts list etc ?
-use existing ahu exhaust with adapter to 4 bolt GT-2052 style connection
$90 shipped
https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v...e=552799F5
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-...3e8c027735
does it interfere with std DV carrier bars/ motors mounts
-aaz 3 bolt manifold part# 028 253 033 R ?
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/3742/103/34352551130_large.jpg
will either of the above work need adapter for the 3 bolt ?
or maybe both get the aaz manifold to get it up higher to clear motor mnt then use the adapter for more turn key install ?
-are new oil lines reqd
-did u do a tune
-will run w/o tune
- new down pipe required ?

Also if u do post on this thread can we please keep on topic I dont want a post about what good guy x is , how much better a vnt variable vane is, or how you did the install in your mkii etc
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Garrett gt2052 sitting here in the box. I'm waiting for the K03 to go before I put it on the van. I talked to Karl quite a while back and he was using a 3 bolt aaz manifold with two of the holes elongated and a third one tapped I believe. It's really easy to see once you have the two sitting in front of you. No adapter piece was needed. I was also going to go the VNT route (they are awesome) but I really like the simplicity of a standard wastegated turbo so I scouped one of these up when the price was right. Hopefully Karl chimes in. I'm curious how it has done for him. I know he's in the process of moving so hes probably not messing around here. I'd definitely get a different tune with it. I was going to run 25psi or so and see how it goes.

Yes you'll need a custom downpipe to muffler
Yes it will run w/o a tune but you wont see its full potential
yes you'll need new drain/feed lines - super easy to make from summit racing parts.

good luck.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>I scouped one of these up when the price was right
what is good price for quality build I see on 400-800
lots of listing for the GT2052V for Nissan Patrol 3.0L ZD30DDTi usa
Hyundai GT2052S are they all interchangeable ?

>yes you'll need new drain/feed lines
> super easy to make from summit racing parts.

did u look at any of the feed lines from Darksidedevelopments
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/braided-oil-feed-line-for-1-9-and-2-0-tdi.html
the claim they work on all "GTB Turbo Kits"
and custom return lines with all fittings ?
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/custom-turbo-oil-return-line-1-9-2-0-tdi.html
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used a late-AAZ exhaust manifold as Dave mentioned. Two bolt holes lined up close enough to elongate (in the turbo itself) and the third I drilled and tapped into the turbo casting, there is a lot of meat there. Then I also port-matched the manifold and turbo at the junction for best flow. The turbo will need to be reclocked but then clears the left mount fine.
I've been running it now for over a year and it's working great. EGT is lower than a stock turbo, but actual numbers depends a lot on your setup and injector size. I never see it go over 1250 at the turbine inlet unless I accidentally lug it. I have the wastegate set at 20 psi. There is really no 'parts list', there is fabrication of lines involved and some M10 grade 10.9 bolts, hardened washers and nuts. Outlet flange on the exhaust will need to be fabbed as well. Don't even consider that horribly-sized aftermarket manifold with the huge outlet. There is lag, it doesn't really start spooling until 2000 rpm, colder weather it spools at 1600-1800 but definitely doesn't make the low end torque like a stock teeny turbo. What is does give is a super-fat mid-range and pulls strong to 4500. I have some photos somewhere.
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tclark
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx Karl
My main goal is getting lower egts when going up a grade
being able to have the mid-range ummp to over take reliable when cruising at 60-65

So far I have found 5 variants for GT2052 what is best for vanagon
or lest educate on pros/cons

GT2052(1) 7272645001S
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2597
these spec match the idparts per Karl//tdiclub
Also used by Perkins Industrial Engine T4.40 engines, year 1996
Compressor:
Inducer - 37.60 mm
Exducer - 52.20 mm
Trim - 52
A/R - 0.51

Turbine:
Wheel diameter - 47 mm
Trim - 72
A/R - 0.50

GT2052(2)
Compressor:
Inducer - 36.80 mm
Exducer - 52.00 mm
Trim - 50
A/R - 0.51

Turbine:
Wheel diameter - 47.00
Trim - 72
A/R - 0.50

GT2052(3)
Compressor:
Inducer - 36.10 mm
Exducer - 52.20 mm
Trim - 48
A/R - 0.51

Turbine:
Wheel diameter - 47.00
Trim - 72
A/R - 0.50


GT2052(4)
Compressor
Inducer - 37.60mm
Exducer - 52.20mm
Trim - 52
A/R - 0.51
Turbine
Wheel - 47.00mm
Trim: 72
A/R: - 0.50

GT2052(5)
Compressor:
Inducer - 38.3mm,
Exducer - 52.2mm
A/R 0.48
Turbine
Wheel diameter 47mm,
A/R 0.46
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westyventures
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Garrett PN is 7272645001S is the one from that tdiclub thread. I believe idparts.com sells them.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:20 am    Post subject: ceramic diesel exhaust Reply with quote

So if the wastegate is a little laggy
Should the full exhaust manifold,downpipe,turbo,
and the outside bottom of the intake get a ceramic thermal.
barrier\
to make the exhast & turbo more efficient spool quicker
And keep the heat from the exhaust off the intake

Do diy oven ceramic bake work just as well as shop ovens...heat is heat, ceramic coat applieđ home/hobby electric gun just as good just would not lastt in volume production env ?

Can u use powder gun with ceramic ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-30-PSI-Powder-Coating-G...0118751476

It it only lasts few yrs its paid just exhaust i get 200+ quotes
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The spool has almost nothing to do with thermal efficiency - it's primarily a velocity issue in this case. Diesels produce less exhaust velocity, especially at low rpm. This is why VNTs are more common on diesels - they perform like a small turbo at low rpms and a larger one as velocity increases.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

westyventures wrote:
The spool has almost nothing to do with thermal efficiency - it's primarily a velocity issue in this case. Diesels produce.

Is that a common misconcption because i see lots of reference to fully coated manifold, downpipe, and turbo=faster spool...
made by both hobbists/mechanics/manufractuers
http://www.zircotec.com/files/43

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-5302.html

http://www.finishlinecoatings.com/engine.htm
performance engine coatings



Intakes
Intakes are coated on the bottom with the oil-shedding coating to cut thermal transfer from the oil to the intake charge.
...
Coatings cut down under hood temperature and decrease spool up time by holding the heat in the turbo.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=257682

Etc etc
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tclark thanks for posting. I've read everything you have on the 2052. I was at the exact spot you were deciding VNT or not and am leaning heavily towards the 2052. I have an etdi AHU that I am assembling to put in my diesel van. I bought some time by tuning my current engine and can actually, enjoyably, use my van now. I was going to rush my TDI install. No rush now. So this thread is great. Karl thanks for the coaching. fitting the AAZ manifold was not clear to me, bonus that it fits past the left mount. Props/plug out to WestyVentures, a great place for well developed Vanagon products. Not wanting to derail thread but the two go somewhat hand in hand when chilling EGTs, Intercooler setups? If not here in this thread, then please PM me some photos of your set ups. I have a factory JX turbo diesel. Battery on the passenger side engine compartment, and fond of it. Big air cleaner on the drivers side. Something has to go and I have not sorted it yet. Thanks for your time and thoughts.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thermal coatings aren't going to change the mechanical characteristics of this turbo drastically. It is just too large to spool quickly at a low velocity.

A more efficient intercooler system will achieve greater gains. The 2052 spools noticeably faster in bitter cold weather.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westyventures wrote:
Thermal coatings aren't going to change the mechanical characteristics of this turbo drastically. It is just too large to spool quickly at a low velocity.

To be clear a ceramic exhaust manifold, downpipe, & turbo coated with a ceramic thermal barrier will spool a turbo faster BUT in this particular use case it is YOUR opinion the increase in spool time would be marginal..
because the 2052 is such a large turbo it takes a lot of time(1s, 5s, ?s ?)
no matter what

Does it make any difference that you are running a 2052 in a mTDI & have most day to day experience with mTDI does all the above apply even when eTDI & ecu is driving the turbo ?

Its unclear to me I have never considered any of these options but having melted my k3/k4, malone/greaseworks stageii, ahu this past summer I am not wanting to have that occur again so just tryin to learn and document as i go down this path & try to be fully engaged ...

Do you have any personal experience with ceramic thermal barrier coated exhaust
like Swain Techís White Lightningceramic thermal barrier
http://swaintech.com/advanced-coating-technology/
or
http://www.zircotec.com/page/our_exhaust_coatings/60
or
Thermo-Tec 11031 Generation II Copper Exhaust Insulating Wrap
down pipe wrap $35 for 1"/50'
http://www.thermotec.com/products/11031-generation-ii-copper-exhaust-insulating-header-wrap.html
that you might share to show when/how its does make sense...
I mean if one did a diy effort I dont see any down side and there might be 3% gain in spool ?

westyventures wrote:

A more efficient intercooler system will achieve greater gains. The 2052 spools noticeably faster in bitter cold weather.


What type of intercooler set up are we talking here that can be efficient
in this use case to show measurable benefits that are worth the effort

1) a better air to air, better location or better air flow from the d pullers, bigger IC pipe better fan etc ?
2) air to air but use Water Methanol Injection & keep the air to air
3) water to air , rad location
4) water to air , Water Methanol Injection
5) ?other options
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: TDI upgrade to GT2052 Turbo on a vanagon anyone try it ? Reply with quote

If using a the larger Garret 20/52 on an AHU, what exhaust manifold would you use?

Cheers
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: TDI upgrade to GT2052 Turbo on a vanagon anyone try it ? Reply with quote

tjet wrote:
If using a the larger Garret 20/52 on an AHU, what exhaust manifold would you use?

Cheers


See the 2nd post in this thread. 3 bolt aaz manifold with one hole tapped into the turbo itself.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:27 pm    Post subject: Nice turbo! Reply with quote

Okay, I recently put this on my mTDI build (AHU, DLC764 nozzles, 12mm pump from Karl)

I built adaptors for the trapezpoid and plan to build some for the triangle which allows for not modifying the turbo (warranty) or manifold.

Previously I was running a K14 turbo, which this GT2052 spools WAY quicker! It spools around 5psi below 2k, but doesn't wake up till after 2k RPM.

I'm currently pushing 20lbs out of it with lower EGTs than before. I can't seem to get more than 20lbs which makes me think I need to upgrade my airbox for more air or adv the timing some. I'm at 1.05 currently.

The last test I did today was a 6% incline on a highway between Lake Havasu City and Kingman, AZ on the I-40. I was going 20lbs up it around 80mph with EGTs around 1100F.

This is my fourth drive and tweak of tuning. I am hoping to reduce the EGTs a tad more at 20lbs. Then do my airbox upgrade idea then adv the timing. Shooting for mid 20s boost.

Here are some photos;

My trapezoid adaptor kit

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I plan to offer one for the triangle manifold by end of this year.

Here are some install photos

The below return pipe off the turbo is my rev2 which is what sips in the kit above and future 3 hole mani adaptor kits.

The oil return off the engine looks like this. The hose off the tee is the Mann Provent 200 with the check-valve installed.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Turbo on the manifold with the adaptor

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here are some shots of the engine bay with it installed with my custom/modded intake manifold with the Mann Provent 200 CatchCan

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


NOTE: The 90deg right off the CCV was too much a bend for the CCV pressure. It would seep out of the bottom of the puck. Now I extend it longer towards the end of the head then 180deg it back into the Provent that's been a solid solution!

I'll post some more results etc within a few days. But I currently am digging this turbo compared to the K14!
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: TDI upgrade to GT2052 Turbo on a vanagon anyone try it ? Reply with quote

Iíll chime in with my experience with the GT2052

Build details on my 87 Syncro tintop:

ALH mTDI with stock rover pump. I tweaked the low smoke and fuel pin plus advanced the timing a fair amount.
DLC 1019 injectors
PD150 intake
Forged rods, stock pistons (new rings), 3 way hone on cylinder bores
Completely rebuilt head
ARP head studs, main studs
frank06 stage 2 cam
Custom exhaust manifold (necessary as I used the FAS mounting system which made it impossible to use an aaz manifold/adapter)
2.5Ē stainless exhaust with flowmaster cat and muffler
Renault intercooler in driver side pillar



I installed everything over the spring/summer, then promptly moved out of Seattle after only 600 miles of testing. Iíve since driven 5k miles and am currently mid road trip and in Austin TX.

Overall, the turbo has worked pretty well. Iíll echo almost everything that has been said so far. The turbo needs RPMs, and is pretty quiet until you hit 2k. I feel that an mTDI pump and your engine should be built to handle the fuel delivery and sustained rpms needed to make the turbo shine. Iím also having a hard time getting the most out if the GT2052, and spent a bunch of time trying to get my boost over the 17-20lbs mark. Iím not convinced that the engine is big enough to push that volume of air, but am happy that others are pushing forward on this. I went as far as completely removing the hose to the wastegate to see if I could spike the boost, but there was no change. Max boost at 20lbs.

The real problem with my setup is that I canít boost hard enough in 4th gear, loaded uphill, to clear out my EGTs. I have to back way off the accelerator to keep from melting my engine, but the temps drop 400 degrees as soon as I jump down to 3rd and push higher rpms. I had my trans fully rebuilt with a new mainshaft and all 4 gears to match the tdi - 4th gear being a .70 straight cut gear. Iíd have to be doing 85 to get the amount of air volume to sustain 20lbs boost and lower the EGTs, and thatís not super fun for me.

Iím leaning towards a VNT turbo with mechanical operation, unless Iím able to figure out how to get this 2052 to work in my application. Itís really a bit of a bummer right now, but is totally reliable and Iím not in a major hurry. I feel that in my setup and gearing a variable turbo will get me into higher boost lower in the rpm range and help me dump the EGTs so I can climb hills at a reasonable speed.

These are just my thoughts, and Iím certainly not an expert. Just a guy whoís trying to figure it out like most of us here. Iím sure I missed a bunch of stuff, so ask any questions you may have.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: TDI upgrade to GT2052 Turbo - anyone try it? Reply with quote

I have a Ko3 hybrid turbo from cascade German. I think itís a ko3/ko4 but they wouldnít tell me. Itís rated to deliver 20 psi continueous.
http://www.cascadegerman.com/product/turbocharger-aaz-k03-hybrid/

It spools up really fast and has no problem delivering the 20 psi of boost as long as the fuel is there.
Iím running it on my AAZ, with a Giles pump.

Even my stock ko3 turbo I had previously had no problem putting out 20 psi with fast spool up. It even put out 30 psi, unintentionally when there was a problem with the wastegate actuator. Sustained that for a while and didnít blow up.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: TDI upgrade to GT2052 Turbo - anyone try it? Reply with quote

Be careful about 'advancing timing' for more performance. There is no performance advantage to advanced timing - unless it was already too retarded and horribly smoky and shaky cold starts. You'll find it increases noise and EGT. In really noisy cases you'll end up on the side of the road with destroyed pistons.
Where the 2052 shines is fatter mid-range - where you'll spend most of the time driving - and upper range limit where the tiny turbos run out of breath.
RE: DLC1019 nozzles: have these been set up buy the shop Kerma recommends? If you just slap them in they will never achieve the full benefits.
There also isn't much reason to need more than 20 psi with these injectors. A super-efficient water/air intercooler system dropping the intake temps achieves a whole lot more than making more heat. The last two I built dropped the temps 160 degrees on the hottest days. 290 into the IC from the turbo, 130 into the engine. An air/air IC just can't shed that much in such a small space.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: TDI upgrade to GT2052 Turbo - anyone try it? Reply with quote

Quote:
RE: DLC1019 nozzles: have these been set up buy the shop Kerma recommends? If you just slap them in they will never achieve the full benefits.


Yeah, I sent the injectors in and had Kerma send them off to his guy. I didnít want to take any chances.

Quote:
Be careful about 'advancing timing' for more performance. There is no performance advantage to advanced timing - unless it was already too retarded and horribly smoky and shaky cold starts. You'll find it increases noise and EGT. In really noisy cases you'll end up on the side of the road with destroyed pistons.


I was really worried about that, so I drove the first 1,500 miles on the factory Rover setting. I adjusted the advance in Bend OR with the help of a well respected tdi/vanagon professional. It seems to start better and did help with some of the EGT issues, but your comments on the intercooler intrigue me more.

My IATs spike pretty good and I had been curious if that may have been as big of a problem. They seemed to work synergistically with the EGT issue, but I kind of disregarded it because higher rpms in 3rd cleared all temps out nicely. I was really hoping that I could stick with an air to air intercooler, but it seems that I may be better off going with air to water - no matter which turbo I end up with.

Any ideas why it seems hard to achieve boost above 20? The mechanic in Bend mentioned another customer who abandoned this turbo because he also couldnít get the boost where he wanted it. I agree that 20lbs seems fine, so maybe more efficiency in the intercooler will help
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: TDI upgrade to GT2052 Turbo - anyone try it? Reply with quote

vanagon_dan wrote:


I was really worried about that, so I drove the first 1,500 miles on the factory Rover setting. I adjusted the advance in Bend OR with the help of a well respected tdi/vanagon professional. It seems to start better and did help with some of the EGT issues, but your comments on the intercooler intrigue me more.

My IATs spike pretty good and I had been curious if that may have been as big of a problem. They seemed to work synergistically with the EGT issue, but I kind of disregarded it because higher rpms in 3rd cleared all temps out nicely. I was really hoping that I could stick with an air to air intercooler, but it seems that I may be better off going with air to water - no matter which turbo I end up with.

Any ideas why it seems hard to achieve boost above 20? The mechanic in Bend mentioned another customer who abandoned this turbo because he also couldnít get the boost where he wanted it. I agree that 20lbs seems fine, so maybe more efficiency in the intercooler will help


"well respected tdi/vanagon professional" - there are only two in this area I know of, Jonathan Rall and me. Wink

The last one I built for myself - and then sold to a young couple who drove it to S America, would do 20-22 depending on how we had it adjusted. It was running the factory LT 2.8 mTDI pump too, which could make a difference.
The 'another customer' is someone who I built a nice mTDI Syncro for over ten years ago, then his wife totaled it and the conversion went into his replacement van. He refused my advice on what additions were needed to support the turbo and the boost levels, as if he had more experience. Rolling Eyes Laughing No experience personally with the Rover pump but lots with 4BT and LT 2.8 pumps. I supplied a few to Jonathan over the years. It could be the pump just isn't supplying enough fuel, especially if it seems to be governed at 4000 or less.
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Karl Mullendore
www.westyventures.com
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