Which tin top should I pick?

[J-Rod's Van]

I am just about to pull the trigger on my first Vanagon Tin Top. I had a 1971 westfalia 20 years ago, loved it. Which would you pick?

A 1990 GL in Bordeaux already has a completed 2.2L Subaru conversion, but is a model with the 2nd row bench and thus no rear table, exterior paint is weathered and old window seals. Or a 1989 White Wolfsburg with a recently rebuilt Wasserboxer, rear facing jump seats and table, entire van is in good condition, paint is original but good.

Is the van with the already completed Subaru conversion the best way to go knowing the van will need some exterior paint work and no table to start with?

Or the Wolfsburg with the stock engine in great condition. I will want a horsepower upgrade eventually. But so pricey.

Let me know what you think.

[iltis74]

Couple thoughts.

First, the fact that it has a Subaru conversion means almost nothing. Maybe it was professionally done by a leader in the conversion industry, or maybe it was someone that just bought a welder and taught himself to fab and wire along the way.

Second, if I was looking for a "horsepower upgrade," I'm not sure I would even consider a 2.2.

So I'd lean more towards the table. But really, I'd be more interested in which one had the best body, cleanest wiring, interior, etc.
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65 Beetle
74 Thing
87 Syncro

[J-Rod's Van]

Thanks for the replies, the dealer states they have a stack of receipts with the subaru swapped van. If it was done by a reputable shop that specializes in swaps, would that be something I should consider? Or is the EJ22 engine just not worth it for the 30 horsepower increase?

There are so many posts about the Wasserboxer being an unreliable and underpowered engine. Or are the later model versions much better?

The Bordeaux color is not my first choice either, and the reality of spending money on a good quality paint job is not something feasible for awhile.

[Steve M.]

'89 with the table. You have no clue to the quality of the subby conversion no matter how many receipts they have.

There are an equal number of people who will say the WBX is reliable because it is reliable.

There is an amazing number of people who are just unlucky or just not mechanically minded or of the "right" brainset to own a 30 yr. old car.
If you drive the car within it's limitations it is not as bad as the naysayer would have you believe.

The table interior is going to be more fun then the extra seats.
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This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them.

[newerwesty1987]

Watch out for emotionally driven, tribal advice. The 2.2 Sub engine is FAR superior in all ways to anything stock. If it was done the right way, that is worth $1000's alone. I know, I drive one all the time and owned the stock version. Oh, and it's 10 times more reliable and better designed.

[Steve M.]

[vwhammer]

I have to agree with newerwesty1987 on this one.
Everything about the subaru is better than any of the stock vanagon engines.
I do wonder if it is an early or late 2.2.
The 2.2 I have for one of my vans came from an 01 impreza and made 140-145HP.
That is a significant step up from any of the Vanagon engines.

I would just about pick the 2.2 over the 2.5 even because the 2.2 never had the head gasket issues that the 2.5 had.

Having said all of that I will echo what many others have said that the subie swap will need looked over very carefully.

look over the wiring.
Does it look all hacked up.

I feel like the exhaust is another indicator of a hack subie swap.

If there are any welds on the exhaust or engine mounting what do they look like?

Does the dealer with all the receipts care to show you one or at the very least tell you some names of some of the companies so you do a little research on them.

Anyway I don't care too much about paint as long as it is not all rusty.

I would also say it is a lot easier and cheaper to add a table to the van than it is to fix just about any of the normal things that break on the vanagon engines.
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Pretty normal daily driver build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=708418&highlight=

4x4 build
https://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/volkswagen-vanagon-4x4-conversion.162055/

[Yellow Rabbit]

Do you have any photos? Many of us that have been around Vanagons for a while might be able to help you spot things to look out for.

[Ahwahnee]

[J-Rod's Van]

Here are photos of the '90 that already has the 2.2L engine swap. Dealer isn't open today so haven't had a chance to check on the receipts for the Subaru engine conversion. You can see that the paint on the back of the Van is slightly oxidized under the window, and on the right side rear wheel well, this is the only small rust spot that I have been able to find.

Thoughts?

[dlb154]

Although I currently have a troublefree Subaru conversion that I did myself and wouldn't go back to the stock wbx 2.1, I believe a first-time buyer should not start with the Subaru converted Vanagon.
As others have stated, you don't know what quality of a conversion you're buying. If you're not a DIY type, you may have difficulties finding a local mechanic that understands the Subaru conversion. And that would only lead to frustration when they can't help but it still costs you money.
Get the '89 and if you find it unreliable, then research and decide if a Subaru conversion is for you.
However, it can be difficult finding a quality mechanic that knows the wbx/Vanagon well enough to trust working on it when needed.

In my opinion, you really need to aim for being a DIY type if you own a Vanagon and use the Samba thread to help when you're stumped.

[Yellow Rabbit]

I like this color Van. However the photos make it appear that the paint on left side is darker than the front clip, trunk hatch, and roof. This combined with the clear coat issues make me wonder if there is some rust or damage lurking under the surface.

I’m also in the stock engine camp. Especially when there are visible wire nuts in the engine bay.

[mikemtnbike]

While I absolutely do not have automotive xenophobia, the words “dealer” and “conversion” would make me step back a minute. If I was buying a conversion I’d either want a tour from the person who did it or I’d want to see receipts from an established specialist like vanaru, smallcar, or rmw. Neither available? Buyer beware.

But, the same applies to “recently rebuilt” waterboxer. GEX rebuilds things, look it up OP. Also but, I love my 2.1. In a tintop, 65-70 in traffic is fine and 45-50 up mountain grades is to be expected. Digifant and the 2.1 have great support information here.

Can you get a PPI and/or what’s your mechanical comfort level?
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1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual

[kiltedhiker]

[?Waldo?]

But the freshly rebuilt WBX could have hand-planked rods!

[hdenter]

If one has noticably less rust and dents, that's the winner. Bodies being equal, go with the table! Trying to piece together the interior you want is not exactly fast and easy unless you have a complete doner to swap from right there. You are in Washington, I believe you can do whatever engine you want. Though the 2.2 subie might be a bit better than the stock WBXer, there are other subies that are better. "Dealer" means you are paying more than you need to for that van. Why not take the WBX, if you don't like the power, you can do a bigger WBXer or a bigger subie. Either way, that van is already set up the way you want. Also, if I was going to have a converted motor or hopped up WBXer, I'd want to be the one who did it so that I WOULD KNOW exactly what I have under the lid. Good luck!!

Hans
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'79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender

[wesitarz]

Doesn't look too shabby. 4spd or auto? How does it drive compared to the WBX? What is the price and difference? Depends on what YOU want.

88 Wolfsburg GL auto with 02 2.5L Subaru since 2003

[Steve M.]

All that has been said and will be said about the pro's & con's is just going to be a never ending story.

I think a key question is:
What are your driving habits?
How one drives is deciding factor in what they want in a vehicle.
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them.

[Russpauly]

Love my stock ‘88 Wolfie. Within one year of ownership I had to put a new engine in already and we stuck with a known good wbx out of a syncro. It drives just fine without issue even down here in Southern California on the highway. This was my biggest concern.

I would ask yourself this however. If you were to buy the Subaru engine, and you needed it repaired, and you couldn’t do it yourself, who would you take it to?

If you want more power in the stock wbx look to 3 things — RMW or intrepid overland exhaust, and Marcos fuel injectors and rockers. Will be an easy and noticeable performance boost.
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1988 Wolfsburg Edition - TinTop
2.1L Watercooled
The Space man Van

[D Clymer]

Those both look like nice vans, and if there are no hidden mechanical problems with either, it would just come down to condition, color preference, and interior layout preference.

In regard to the engines, for a light tin-top with a manual transmission, either engine will power the van decently. The 2.1 wasserboxer has a reputation for being gutless, but a good running one actually powers a tin-top very adequately. It's just when you get into campers and Syncros that weigh a lot more that its power becomes really pokey. The Subaru 2.2, while not as powerful as the later 2.5, still offers 130hp and similar torque, as well as the ability to produce power at higher rpms - which is sometimes nice when you are limited to only 4 speeds for all manner of highway grades.

The late model GL and the Carat/Wolfsburg Edition models are identical on the outside, and both have the lower "touring" suspension, so that part is a toss-up. But the interior of the Carat is definitely more versatile. Having all that open center floor space and those removable jump seats offers just about the perfect arrangement for hauling passengers, cargo, or camping. The GL interior still has the rear weekender seat, and you can easily remove the center seat for carrying things, but you miss out on the cool table with overhead light, and the ability to click the last two seats into place in a snap.

When it comes to possible mechanical pitfalls (hidden problems), both powertrains have them. With the 2.1 wasserboxer, the performance and durability of the engine all depend on who built it and with what parts. If it has cheap aftermarket pistons that lower the compression ratio, it will be dog. And if it wasn't rebuilt properly, or is in need of a bottom end rebuild, it can have low oil pressure at warm idle. This isn't always apparent on a quick test drive, and usually rears its head after a long freeway cruise when you return to idle. And of course, you can have corroded heads that leak coolant.

With the Subaru conversion, the engines tend to be durable - especially the 2.2s. But the problems can all come from the quality of the conversion. If the wiring wasn't done by someone knowledgeable, that can lead to running and reliability problems. And if the cooling system wasn't configured right, that can also lead to cooling problems. With the Subaru conversions, the physical and mechanical aspects of the conversion are pretty sound. It all comes down to the electronics and cooling system. If you are interested in that Bordeaux van, it might be worth taking it to Smallcar in Tacoma and pay them to assess the quality of the conversion. They would be a good resource to service the van for you, too, in the event that you become an owner.

I think the best thing would be to go drive both, see which one is more appealing to you, and go from there.

I keep an eye on the Seattle area Vanagons for sale pretty regularly, and I've looked at the ads for both of those vans. The only observations I have about the Bordeaux one is that it has been for sale for a long time, and that suggests it has been passed up by potential customers even though it is priced very reasonably for a van with a conversion. The 89 Wolfsburg Edition has only been for sale for about three weeks, and it looks like a really clean van. The only thing I notice on that one, is that it has the wrong interior. The 89 Wolfsburg Edition had a really distinctive chenille velour interior with diagonal graphics on the upholstery, and this van has a regular Carat/87 -88 Wolfsburg Edition interior. I don't know if that matters much, but it does suggest that van has been passed around a bit.

Anyway, this ended up being longer than I'd planned, but I thought these were some worthwhile things to consider while shopping for that ideal Vanagon.