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johnsilverlakes
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2015
Posts: 96
Location: Silver Lakes, California
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 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:53 pm Post subject: Vacuum Tee T on brake booster hose line |
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A bit of history...My Westy ran well but leaked too much oil. I decided to rebuild the engine minus new Jugs and splitting the case. Recently re-installed... The engine would run, but was very loud. I found that I had various exhaust leaks at the flanges. Resolved leaks by truing flanges and using double Elring gaskets. Engine still sounded loud and I thought it may be valve noise. Re-set valve clearances to .006 ( They were set to approx. 3/16". Seriously out of adjustment! ) Engine ran much quieter, but would spit and sputter at anything over 3000 rpm. I thought I may have vacuum leaks. So, I replaced all the hoses and followed the diagram above. Now it won't run more than a few seconds before dying. Some of the hoses did go to the wrong place, but it ran before I re-did all the hoses...Tomorrow is another day, but seriously frustrated tonight. Thanks for any help!
Here's a pic of the Brake Booster Tee. It's located on the driver's side between the check valve and the front of the bus. There's a hole with grommet on the bus tin that looked factory...I'm not sure what this should connect too.
11/6/2015 : UPDATE
SUCCESS !!
Not sure what was the cause was since I did multiple things...
Removed Distributor and cleaned points, adjusted gap - I read on the forum that grease and oil can cause bad things on the points surfaces. So, I cleaned contact surfaces and the feeler gauge with Denatured Alcohol to keep everything clean.
Replaced condensor - I read about someone's experience with good idling and bad performance above 3000 RPM - exactly what I had experienced
Rechecked valve gaps. Still at .006
Routed vacuum lines per diagram in this post
Capped off Brake Booster Tee. I probably had this mysterious line connected to something that didn't like the strong vacuum it produces - I'll probably remove the Tee to avoid guesswork for myself or others down the road...
Adjusted timing
Runs Well !
Thanks for the help !
Last edited by johnsilverlakes on Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:10 am; edited 2 times in total |
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eche_bus
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Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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I own a late '76 bus, but will try to help with what I know:
I'm not aware of a T in the brake booster hose with a small vacuum port, only the large T that connects the Decel Valve, Intake Plenum, and brake booster lines together.
As your 009 distributor (get rid of it!) doesn't use vacuum advance/retard, those lines must be plugged. Do not connect them together.
Vehicles made through January 1976 have a vacuum-operated EGR valve. This is what your diagram is referring to. The charcoal canister does not connect to engine vacuum.
The large port on your Air Cleaner EEC valve connects by way of a large diameter hose to your charcoal canister. Your canister should have three fittings, 2 on one end and 1 on the other. On the single fitting end, a hose runs to the left side of your fan housing to supply air to dry out the charcoal. On the dual fitting end, the large fitting connects to the Air Cleaner EEC valve, the small one connects to the returns from your fuel tank evaporative lines.
Study this to learn much more: http://www.ratwell.com/technical/VacuumHoses.html
Be sure to look closely at the differences between model years. Very important!
Also, the Fuel Injection section of the Bentley book may be very helpful regarding the EGR valve you have. |
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timvw7476
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013
Posts: 2200
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:25 am Post subject: Can't Sort out vacuum line problems |
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Before you do anything with that 009, the wrong point gap can screw up
fuel injection really bad if the points go off proper setting or
get dirty. Seeing as your valves were at 3/16"?!, try to check for .016"
point gap. |
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johnsilverlakes
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2015
Posts: 96
Location: Silver Lakes, California
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| eche_bus wrote: |
I own a late '76 bus, but will try to help with what I know:
I'm not aware of a T in the brake booster hose with a small vacuum port, only the large T that connects the Decel Valve, Intake Plenum, and brake booster lines together.
As your 009 distributor (get rid of it!) doesn't use vacuum advance/retard, those lines must be plugged. Do not connect them together.
Vehicles made through January 1976 have a vacuum-operated EGR valve. This is what your diagram is referring to. The charcoal canister does not connect to engine vacuum.
The large port on your Air Cleaner EEC valve connects by way of a large diameter hose to your charcoal canister. Your canister should have three fittings, 2 on one end and 1 on the other. On the single fitting end, a hose runs to the left side of your fan housing to supply air to dry out the charcoal. On the dual fitting end, the large fitting connects to the Air Cleaner EEC valve, the small one connects to the returns from your fuel tank evaporative lines.
Study this to learn much more: http://www.ratwell.com/technical/VacuumHoses.html
Be sure to look closely at the differences between model years. Very important!
Also, the Fuel Injection section of the Bentley book may be very helpful regarding the EGR valve you have. |
Thanks eche bus! I posted a pic of the Brake Booster Tee. I'd be interesting to know if it's a stock item. When all ran good, it went to something in the engine compartment...A proper distributor is in the works, but I need to return everything to it's previous state of running before I can justify to the wife the need for more parts  . The term canister was confusing to me...As was the absence of the lines going to the charcoal canister in the diagram. Thanks for the clarification. |
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johnsilverlakes
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2015
Posts: 96
Location: Silver Lakes, California
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Can't Sort out vacuum line problems |
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| timvw7476 wrote: |
Before you do anything with that 009, the wrong point gap can screw up
fuel injection really bad if the points go off proper setting or
get dirty. Seeing as your valves were at 3/16"?!, try to check for .016"
point gap. |
Thanks Tim,
I'm going to recheck the valves this morning. I did some digging on the forums and someone mentioned similar issues that wound up being a condenser. So, I'll check the point's gap and swap out a condenser. Hopefully it will work out! |
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eche_bus
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| johnsilverlakes wrote: |
| eche_bus wrote: |
I own a late '76 bus, but will try to help with what I know:
I'm not aware of a T in the brake booster hose with a small vacuum port, only the large T that connects the Decel Valve, Intake Plenum, and brake booster lines together.
As your 009 distributor (get rid of it!) doesn't use vacuum advance/retard, those lines must be plugged. Do not connect them together.
Vehicles made through January 1976 have a vacuum-operated EGR valve. This is what your diagram is referring to. The charcoal canister does not connect to engine vacuum.
The large port on your Air Cleaner EEC valve connects by way of a large diameter hose to your charcoal canister. Your canister should have three fittings, 2 on one end and 1 on the other. On the single fitting end, a hose runs to the left side of your fan housing to supply air to dry out the charcoal. On the dual fitting end, the large fitting connects to the Air Cleaner EEC valve, the small one connects to the returns from your fuel tank evaporative lines.
Study this to learn much more: http://www.ratwell.com/technical/VacuumHoses.html
Be sure to look closely at the differences between model years. Very important!
Also, the Fuel Injection section of the Bentley book may be very helpful regarding the EGR valve you have. |
Thanks eche bus! I posted a pic of the Brake Booster Tee. I'd be interesting to know if it's a stock item. When all ran good, it went to something in the engine compartment...A proper distributor is in the works, but I need to return everything to it's previous state of running before I can justify to the wife the need for more parts . The term canister was confusing to me...As was the absence of the lines going to the charcoal canister in the diagram. Thanks for the clarification. |
To me, that whole section you show with the 'T' in the power brake vacuum line looks homebrew. There is nothing like that in my manual transmission '76. There is only a one-way valve in line with the booster vacuum line which is item "A" shown in the first photo at the Ratwell website link I posted earlier. I see you have a small hose coming off that T. I'd recommend tracing where it goes in order to try to understand what's up with it. |
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5994
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'm trying to figure out how you rebuilt the engine but did not check/adjust the valves before starting it the first time.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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JP6210
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2015
Posts: 119
Location: Beaufort, NC
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Can't sort out vacuum line problems |
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| johnsilverlakes wrote: |
A bit of history...My Westy ran well but leaked too much oil. I decided to rebuild the engine minus new Jugs and splitting the case. Recently re-installed... The engine would run, but was very loud. I found that I had various exhaust leaks at the flanges. Resolved leaks by truing flanges and using double Elring gaskets. Engine still sounded loud and I thought it may be valve noise. Re-set valve clearances to .006 ( They were set to approx. 3/16". Seriously out of adjustment! ) Engine ran much quieter, but would spit and sputter at anything over 3000 rpm. I thought I may have vacuum leaks. So, I replaced all the hoses and followed the diagram above. Now it won't run more than a few seconds before dying. Some of the hoses did go to the wrong place, but it ran before I re-did all the hoses...Tomorrow is another day, but seriously frustrated tonight. Thanks for any help!
Here's a pic of the Brake Booster Tee. It's located on the driver's side b etween the check valve and the front of the bus. There's a hole with grommet on the bus tin that looked factory...I'm not sure what this should connect too. |
I also have a 9/75 bus- I'll run down in the light in the morning and see if I have that same T- PO did some weird things so it might not be definitive, but I'll see if it is there- This also might be helpful- http://www.ratwell.com/technical/VacuumHoses.html if that is not where you picked up the diagram- I am looking forward to hearing how all that is supposed to be connected since mine had very few hoses connected when I got it and the motor is out right now.
_________________
'76 Chrome Yellow Westy "Tallula" |
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johnsilverlakes
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2015
Posts: 96
Location: Silver Lakes, California
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| sjbartnik wrote: |
| I'm trying to figure out how you rebuilt the engine but did not check/adjust the valves before starting it the first time. |
Lots of things I will do differently the next time...I focused on taking care of everything that would negate pulling the engine to take care of. New Fuel filler hoses, fuel tank cleaning and lining, new emission hose connections behind the firewall, new transmission seal, new clutch and throw out bearing,etc. |
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johnsilverlakes
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2015
Posts: 96
Location: Silver Lakes, California
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Can't sort out vacuum line problems |
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| JP6210 wrote: |
| johnsilverlakes wrote: |
A bit of history...My Westy ran well but leaked too much oil. I decided to rebuild the engine minus new Jugs and splitting the case. Recently re-installed... The engine would run, but was very loud. I found that I had various exhaust leaks at the flanges. Resolved leaks by truing flanges and using double Elring gaskets. Engine still sounded loud and I thought it may be valve noise. Re-set valve clearances to .006 ( They were set to approx. 3/16". Seriously out of adjustment! ) Engine ran much quieter, but would spit and sputter at anything over 3000 rpm. I thought I may have vacuum leaks. So, I replaced all the hoses and followed the diagram above. Now it won't run more than a few seconds before dying. Some of the hoses did go to the wrong place, but it ran before I re-did all the hoses...Tomorrow is another day, but seriously frustrated tonight. Thanks for any help!
Here's a pic of the Brake Booster Tee. It's located on the driver's side b etween the check valve and the front of the bus. There's a hole with grommet on the bus tin that looked factory...I'm not sure what this should connect too. |
I also have a 9/75 bus- I'll run down in the light in the morning and see if I have that same T- PO did some weird things so it might not be definitive, but I'll see if it is there- This also might be helpful- http://www.ratwell.com/technical/VacuumHoses.html if that is not where you picked up the diagram- I am looking forward to hearing how all that is supposed to be connected since mine had very few hoses connected when I got it and the motor is out right now. |
Thanks JP If there's a few Early 76 models that lack the Tee in question I think I'll eliminate it. There's no telling what previous owners changed - for better or worse...Richard's site is full of useful information. The site was down briefly for maintenance or site renewal mid way through my rebuild. I panicked at the thought of the loss of valuable information... |
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JP6210
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2015
Posts: 119
Location: Beaufort, NC
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Can't sort out vacuum line problems |
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I also have a 9/75 bus- I'll run down in the light in the morning and see if I have that same T- PO did some weird things so it might not be definitive, but I'll see if it is there- This also might be helpful- http://www.ratwell.com/technical/VacuumHoses.html if that is not where you picked up the diagram- I am looking forward to hearing how all that is supposed to be connected since mine had very few hoses connected when I got it and the motor is out right now.[/quote]
Thanks JP If there's a few Early 76 models that lack the Tee in question I think I'll eliminate it. There's no telling what previous owners changed - for better or worse...Richard's site is full of useful information. The site was down briefly for maintenance or site renewal mid way through my rebuild. I panicked at the thought of the loss of valuable information...[/quote]
Sorry for the delay- the weather has been horrendous- I have that same piece on the brake booster line, but it looks like the po stuck something in there to block it off. My brake booster check valve was moved forward in front of the firewall- I'd really like to figure out where that goes though in the interest of having things correct- it looks like that might be this part:http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1799779
But I have not figured out the routing yet- I am thinking I am probably going to remove and run straight brake booster hose all the way from the valve to the booster so I know it is fresh- I may go with some copper between, but leaning towards the hose-
_________________
'76 Chrome Yellow Westy "Tallula" |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51125
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:40 am Post subject: |
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The Tee is for vacuum to the EGR valve, VW used the brake booster and the line leading up front to it as a reservoir for vacuum so the EGR could have full vacuum even at full throttle.
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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JP6210
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Joined: October 14, 2015
Posts: 119
Location: Beaufort, NC
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| The Tee is for vacuum to the EGR valve, VW used the brake booster and the line leading up front to it as a reservoir for vacuum so the EGR could have full vacuum even at full throttle. |
Busdaddy- what's your take- reconnect, or cap and leave off?
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'76 Chrome Yellow Westy "Tallula" |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51125
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Are you using the EGR?, if yes you'll need it, if it's gone or non functional the Tee and it's hose is just one more potential leak.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
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eche_bus
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Joined: October 07, 2007
Posts: 1318
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry for the bad advice about the booster line part. What threw me was that for "early FI engines" Ratwell not only shows EGR vacuum provided by a 4-way T near the intake plenum, but also makes no mention of the booster line T for any model year. Ratwell's website is great, but I wish there was more of a "living document" that would outline these small changes from year to year, updated as new discoveries are made. |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51125
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Can't sort out vacuum line problems |
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Yes, that one confounded me for years as well, until I encountered a really original bus and the lightbulb came on, makes perfect sense and saves installing a separate reservoir.
It's also found on 74 carbed buses, not sure about 73s.
I imagine Mayor Atwell is a little busy running his town at the moment but I'll bet he'd happily add a revised drawing to his site if someone else provided it.
The Tee may have been a part added later at the dealer due to a service bulletin as well.
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Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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