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magpie81
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2011
Posts: 1
Location: Tacoma
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 Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:19 pm Post subject: Death by Distributor cap |
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| My 87 all stock Vanagon has been showing some serious running issues that do not seem to be mentioned here directly. What would cause the center carbon/composite contact to burn away in only 500 miles? All that remains is the brass spring and tiny backing plate where the contact once was. This is the second one to fail in this way in this short of a distance. The most recent tune-up she got all new plugs, wires, cap and rotor. Any assistance or feedback is appreciated. |
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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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Could this be caused by wiring the coil backwards? Or did the carbon button just fall out and disappear?
Aloha
tp |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 51151
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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| Maybe it is time to change brands, I have pretty much stopped using Bosch for anything any more. |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17941
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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The contact may have been stuck in the cap and not riding on the rotor. This would have caused the spark to jump the gap there. That is just a guess. What brand cap and rotor did you install originally?
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K.T.24 |
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Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1282
Location: Right Here
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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The amount of voltage in an ignition system is determined how difficult the spark gets to ground. High resistance is where I would focus my attention. Check the wiring and spark plugs.
Cheap is not good place to be when buying ignition components. There is a reason good spark plugs and wires cost what they do.
Bosch is a good company, but nearly as good as what they used to be. NGK is also worth investing in too.
Of course the carbon button is there when it leaves the factory, but that does not mean it made it to your VW. Make certain the new one has a button and replace the rotor too. |
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6424
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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When I restore distributors I rarely use brand new components anymore. I use NOS components.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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mbwesty
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2007
Posts: 296
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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My 88 Westy's been running like crap. This is a 2 yrs old, less than 20k miles, cap that had caused it. I think the center contact was some how stuck or not moving freely. The funny thing was this was a replacement to one that its center contact had fell out during shipping and it was lost as I was opening the box. I also recall I had to push the center contact of this replacement one back in before installing. I guess my point is they just don't make them like they used to . I had never had this happened to me before.
Now, just out of curiosity, what's the difference between these two caps? They both fit my 88 Westy. The one to the left is P/N 03214, and the right's P/N is 03212. The 03214 is couple bucks more expensive and comes with the black plastic jacket. Without the jacket they both look the same to me. I wonder why online they say get the 03214. |
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jmranger
Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2010
Posts: 701
Location: Quebec
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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| mbwesty wrote: |
| Now, just out of curiosity, what's the difference between these two caps? They both fit my 88 Westy. The one to the left is P/N 03214, and the right's P/N is 03212. The 03214 is couple bucks more expensive and comes with the black plastic jacket. Without the jacket they both look the same to me. I wonder why online they say get the 03214 |
The black cap has a metal insert. The goal is to prevent the small spark between the rotor and the cap to generate electrical noise everywhere in the engine bay.
If you use the 03212, you're supposed to have a metal shield around your cap, visible in this photo.
There's also another cap floating around for these vans, the 03360. It's supposed to only be mated on the 038/205AC distributor used in some 90/91 vans, but it can be fitted on the earlier distributor too (someone installed one in my van). I have a 03214 waiting to be installed.
A lot more info here:
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#V8691
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ovhignbo.htm |
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mbwesty
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2007
Posts: 296
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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| jmranger wrote: |
The black cap has a metal insert. The goal is to prevent the small spark between the rotor and the cap to generate electrical noise everywhere in the engine bay.
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Si, thx! The metal insert your talking about is the one where the clip touches outside on the jacket? So if the jacket is still good I suppose I could just reuse it on a 03212? I can't always get the 03214 where I shop. Thx! |
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jmranger
Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2010
Posts: 701
Location: Quebec
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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| mbwesty wrote: |
| Si, thx! The metal insert your talking about is the one where the clip touches outside on the jacket? So if the jacket is still good I suppose I could just reuse it on a 03212? I can't always get the 03214 where I shop. Thx! |
I'm assuming it contains more metal than just the clip. I'd love to see one x-rayed, but that machine's still on the wish list 
The latching clips latch on orange material on the 03212 and on the metal tab on the 03214. Probably not enough difference to matter. |
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mbwesty
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2007
Posts: 296
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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| jmranger wrote: |
I'm assuming it contains more metal than just the clip. I'd love to see one x-rayed, but that machine's still on the wish list
The latching clips latch on orange material on the 03212 and on the metal tab on the 03214. Probably not enough difference to matter. |
Yeah, I bet you that's more metal that that jacket contains. Perhaps the jacket material is conductive. I should check. I think I will just reuse the jacket when only an 03212 is available to me. The 03214 plus shipping could easily be $25 alone. Also, back in the days I could hear engine interference on my FM when had used the wrong plugs, I kinda don't think its enough for the cell signals--microwave signals? I am on Pandora full time. |
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kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 8098
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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1.9L DJ engines
To VIN M-105000
Distributor #025905205N uses Cap #027905207 (Bosch 03212 w/ separate metal grounding ring #059905209)
From VIN M-105001
Distributor #025905205AF uses Cap #027905207A (Bosch 03214 w/ integrated grounding cap)
2.1L MV engines
To VIN L-060000
Distributor #025905205M uses Cap #027905207 (Bosch 03212 w/ separate metal grounding ring #059905209)
From VIN L-060001 to VIN M-105000
Distributor #025905205AC uses Cap #030905207 (Bosch 03360 w/ separate metal grounding ring #030905209)
From VIN M-105001
Distributor #025905205AG uses Cap #051905207 (Bosch 03368 w/ integrated grounding cap)
Considering GoWesty (et al) sells the 03214 cap for the 2.1L when the VW parts catalog shows 03368, the two appear to be interchangeable. Thus, if you can't find a 03214, look for a 03368 (standard equipment on 1990-1993 Digifant Cabriolets*).
[*Interestingly, the 1984-1989 Cabriolets also use 03212 & 03214 caps... so, if you have a Cabriolet of the same vintage as your van, you can swap caps.]
_________________
~Kamz 
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
 1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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msinabottle
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005
Posts: 3492
Location: Denver Area, Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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Thank you, kamzcab86!
I've been trying to figure that out for a long time. Jim Blazer told me that he doesn't like the shield on a Vanagon distributor, metal OR plastic, as they can make it possible for charge to arc from plug to plug. I pass that along in ignorance, but Jim Blazer certainly is NOT ignorant of Vanagons and their ways.
Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence." |
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jmranger
Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2010
Posts: 701
Location: Quebec
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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Thanks for the info Kamz.
Two quick questions: the prefix letter is the model year, correct? So they were still producing 1.9L in '91? Or is the DJ the 2.1 112i that never made it on this continent? And just to complete my bookmarks, is that info from a publicly accessible website? Thanks. |
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derekdrew
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 246
Location: Far Northwest CT
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:41 am Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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The old system was where there was a metal shield around the distributor grounded to the engine. In the new system, the metal shield seems to be integrated with the cap, and you can see a metal contact point on the side of the distributor cap.
Why would they provide access to the metal contact point for the EFI shield that is integrated with the distributor cap unless they intended for you to attach something to that metal and then ground it on the engine the way the old system worked. In other words, where are the attachment parts that attach to the exposed metal contact point in the new style distributor cap? I am looking at a cap 03214 in my hands and wondering how to ground this cap, or what to do with the exposed contact area that seems intended to attach to something.
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Derek Drew
derekdrew - a t - derekmail - dott - com |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17941
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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| derekdrew wrote: |
The old system was where there was a metal shield around the distributor grounded to the engine. In the new system, the metal shield seems to be integrated with the cap, and you can see a metal contact point on the side of the distributor cap.
Why would they provide access to the metal contact point for the EFI shield that is integrated with the distributor cap unless they intended for you to attach something to that metal and then ground it on the engine the way the old system worked. In other words, where are the attachment parts that attach to the exposed metal contact point in the new style distributor cap? I am looking at a cap 03214 in my hands and wondering how to ground this cap, or what to do with the exposed contact area that seems intended to attach to something. |
Got a picture of what you are looking at? From memory, one of the cap clips would seat against the part I think you are asking about. The original all metal cap had a short ground lead that went to a spade connector under one of the distributor screws.
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The Carrot
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2013
Posts: 173
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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The hold down clip on the distributor body provides the ground path.
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1990 Orly Blue Carat |
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0to60in6min
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2006
Posts: 3434
Location: OR & CA (Oregon/California)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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a story to share...
a while ago, my daughter came over with her Carat to visit ... the next morning it didn't start... cranks well but no start...
I looked around and found that one of the distributor clips was not ON... the hidden one on the other side not visible..... the dist. cap was on but slanted with only one clip... I took it out and the inside of the dist cap was quite bad and the rotor too. I replaced both and it started right up...
I don't know why one clip was off and still a mystery to me... |
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6424
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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| The Carrot wrote: |
| The hold down clip on the distributor body provides the ground path. |
It's a clamp not a clip/ The clip holds the cap onto the distributor body.
Cap clips do sometimes come loose and can break.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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The Carrot
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2013
Posts: 173
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Death by Distributor cap |
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The clip is the part that I am referring to. There are two of them and they are both held in place in a groove on the metal body of the distributor. One of them does the job of providing a ground path to the black plastic suppression cover via the molded in metal contact at the clips contact point.
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1990 Orly Blue Carat |
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