| Author |
Message |
sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
|
 Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:46 am Post subject: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
 |
|
Hello, Im looking to switch my 1.7litre 914 engine, 96mm pistons and cylinders. My only concern, to fit the 1.7 heads on the 96mm cylinders, they need to opened up. So my question, could i get 1.8 liter heads from aa preformance, or should i have the 1.7 litre heads sent out and machined?
_________________
Filthy Buggers NJ
73 Super German Looker
68 Panel Bus Dave Brown Racing Engines
62 Notchback
60 Mango Ragtop Camper Bug Project Thread
63 Ragtop Project
73 Auto Westfalia
2056 Type 4 Engine Build Thread
Filthy Buggers |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23112
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
| sshulk wrote: |
| Hello, Im looking to switch my 1.7litre 914 engine, 96mm pistons and cylinders. My only concern, to fit the 1.7 heads on the 96mm cylinders, they need to opened up. So my question, could i get 1.8 liter heads from aa preformance, or should i have the 1.7 litre heads sent out and machined? |
So...you are building a 1910?
Both methods have issues. The 1.7L heads can be opened up ni problem....however you will be needing larger valves to feed a 1910 (the 1.7L actually works better with larger valves even for a 1.7L in many cases).
That means new seats...new valves....new guides....full rebuild. And....the 1.7L has the smallest combustion chamber of all of the type 4 heads typically at 50-51cc. It can be brought out a bit to about 53cc by unshrouding the valves....however while fly cutting for 96's...you will increase the already large quench area by a considerable amount.
Your compression is going to be high...which may work if you have the right fueling and ignition..but many times does not...and/or unless you have a very large deck height...which is really poor and hot running for a type 4.
The other issue...the AA 1.8L heads...unless you get enough feedback that they have done the required diligence to them after importing them from AMC in Spain....you will need new springs, new seats, new studs and better valves. From the looks of what they have...they have already done most of this...but get some feedback.
Its going to cost about the same either way.
I would not be shopping for heads yet. And I would definitely not be upgrading and type 4 engine with larger and new heads on a used bottom end without stripping it down and measuring everything.
Have you driven anything with a type 4 in it yet? You have a LOT of planning to do first. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| sshulk wrote: |
| Hello, Im looking to switch my 1.7litre 914 engine, 96mm pistons and cylinders. My only concern, to fit the 1.7 heads on the 96mm cylinders, they need to opened up. So my question, could i get 1.8 liter heads from aa preformance, or should i have the 1.7 litre heads sent out and machined? |
So...you are building a 1910?
Both methods have issues. The 1.7L heads can be opened up ni problem....however you will be needing larger valves to feed a 1910 (the 1.7L actually works better with larger valves even for a 1.7L in many cases).
That means new seats...new valves....new guides....full rebuild. And....the 1.7L has the smallest combustion chamber of all of the type 4 heads typically at 50-51cc. It can be brought out a bit to about 53cc by unshrouding the valves....however while fly cutting for 96's...you will increase the already large quench area by a considerable amount.
Your compression is going to be high...which may work if you have the right fueling and ignition..but many times does not...and/or unless you have a very large deck height...which is really poor and hot running for a type 4.
The other issue...the AA 1.8L heads...unless you get enough feedback that they have done the required diligence to them after importing them from AMC in Spain....you will need new springs, new seats, new studs and better valves. From the looks of what they have...they have already done most of this...but get some feedback.
Its going to cost about the same either way.
I would not be shopping for heads yet. And I would definitely not be upgrading and type 4 engine with larger and new heads on a used bottom end without stripping it down and measuring everything.
Have you driven anything with a type 4 in it yet? You have a LOT of planning to do first. Ray |
Yes im just gathering info to start my planning. What would be the best option?
_________________
Filthy Buggers NJ
73 Super German Looker
68 Panel Bus Dave Brown Racing Engines
62 Notchback
60 Mango Ragtop Camper Bug Project Thread
63 Ragtop Project
73 Auto Westfalia
2056 Type 4 Engine Build Thread
Filthy Buggers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4599
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
edit
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960
Last edited by jsturtlebuggy on Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nextgen
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6137
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
I purchased a 1.7 914 engine. I am curious what upgrades to use for it. The previous owner said that I wouldn't need to split the case. (He rebuilds these engines and races them) When I went there it was very clean and is a complete engine that was on a stand. He started it up. The compression was around 120 for all the cylinders except one that was pushing 80. He said that it was coming from the cylinder. In my opinion it sounded strong. He recommended slapping a"big bore" kit on it, and it would be ready to go. I purchased the engine for 600, minus the carbs and exhaust. Otherwise, complete.
BTW Joe, Im got your manual today. I am reading through it right now, this is great!  
_________________
Filthy Buggers NJ
73 Super German Looker
68 Panel Bus Dave Brown Racing Engines
62 Notchback
60 Mango Ragtop Camper Bug Project Thread
63 Ragtop Project
73 Auto Westfalia
2056 Type 4 Engine Build Thread
Filthy Buggers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4599
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
edit
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960
Last edited by jsturtlebuggy on Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4599
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
edit
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960
Last edited by jsturtlebuggy on Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23112
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
| sshulk wrote: |
I purchased a 1.7 914 engine. I am curious what upgrades to use for it. The previous owner said that I wouldn't need to split the case. (He rebuilds these engines and races them) When I went there it was very clean and is a complete engine that was on a stand. He started it up. The compression was around 120 for all the cylinders except one that was pushing 80. He said that it was coming from the cylinder. In my opinion it sounded strong. He recommended slapping a"big bore" kit on it, and it would be ready to go. I purchased the engine for 600, minus the carbs and exhaust. Otherwise, complete.
BTW Joe, Im got your manual today. I am reading through it right now, this is great! |
No need to split the case on a used type 4 with low compression on one cylinder that you have not run, tested oil pressure or have no idea of the miles??????????
No way. You absolutely need to split the case. Clean it, inspect the cam lobes, main bearing condition and especially the cam gear to oil pump gap to thrust bearing....especially from someone who supposedly races these engines.
To suggest not to inspect the lower end on ANY used type 4 that is not running is unprofessional and in my opinion shows a lack of knowledge of the characteristics, costs and necessities of what goes into a type 4 engine.
It sounds more like someone just trying yo complete a sale.
And.....you are contemplating making it larger.....putting more strain on an unknown lower end.
What you are contemplating is sloppy. If you want to shoot from the hip like that....I would politely suggest you stick with a rather disposible type 1 based engine.....or you are going to run out of parts and money very fast.
Also....not even mentioning sealing and cleaning.....what significant benefit is to be gained from not stripping it down to inspect and measure the lower end? If its all perfect.....whats it costing you to strip it down, clean it and simp ly reassemble it?
On the other hand if its not perfect as is....what you stand to lose by not stripping it down .....is a lot. The damage or very short lifespan can cost far more than the cost of some time assembly lube and sealant. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
You are right. I should stop trying to cut corners and do this right.
_________________
Filthy Buggers NJ
73 Super German Looker
68 Panel Bus Dave Brown Racing Engines
62 Notchback
60 Mango Ragtop Camper Bug Project Thread
63 Ragtop Project
73 Auto Westfalia
2056 Type 4 Engine Build Thread
Filthy Buggers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MConstable
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 1822
Location: Saint Charles IL
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
| sshulk wrote: |
I purchased a 1.7 914 engine. I am curious what upgrades to use for it. The previous owner said that I wouldn't need to split the case. (He rebuilds these engines and races them) When I went there it was very clean and is a complete engine that was on a stand. He started it up. The compression was around 120 for all the cylinders except one that was pushing 80. He said that it was coming from the cylinder. In my opinion it sounded strong. He recommended slapping a"big bore" kit on it, and it would be ready to go. I purchased the engine for 600, minus the carbs and exhaust. Otherwise, complete.
BTW Joe, Im got your manual today. I am reading through it right now, this is great! |
Good for you on getting the engine
Post pics! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
Yeah. Its coming sometime after Wednesday. I got a few other goodies as well, but I can show that when I post some pictures
_________________
Filthy Buggers NJ
73 Super German Looker
68 Panel Bus Dave Brown Racing Engines
62 Notchback
60 Mango Ragtop Camper Bug Project Thread
63 Ragtop Project
73 Auto Westfalia
2056 Type 4 Engine Build Thread
Filthy Buggers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Connolly
Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2015
Posts: 58
Location: Sandy, UT
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
| Use the 96s for the 1800 and bore the heads to the 1800 size. You will get a much stronger cylinder this way. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23112
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
| sshulk wrote: |
| You are right. I should stop trying to cut corners and do this right. |
I agree with McConstable....good job in getting the engine.
To better answer your earlier question.....since you have me thinking ahout it  .....I think its a damn good plan to build a 1910 for your first or even second build.
I have never personally FULLY built a 1910 by myself. I have helped with a few and driven and tuned a few. Damn good engine! The 1.7L/1.8L bottom end is bullet proof. Its tougher than the 2.0L. This is because the 1.7L and 2.0l crank.....are the same forging. The 2.0L is then ground offset by 5mm to make a 71mm stroke.....so there is less overlap of main bearing journal to crank centerline.....not that I think you could break it either way
Also the 2.0L main bearings have less bearing area being a smaller diameter.
But here is where my warning was earlier. While the 1.7L is just about the toughest head of the lot.....its older in design.....had more design time invested in it.....and is really designed to be extremely good in the size range that it came in.
This is not saying that its a problem going up to a 96 cylinder. It can handle that.....but bear in mind that the chamber size and shape were designed to work the best with the 1.7L domed piston or a minimum a 1.7L flat top piston with a tight deck.
But since you are moving away from the original 1.7L piston and chamber configuration....that is also a single vote to just as easily use a 1.8L head....because the design benefits of the 1.7L chamber are not really useful on the 1910.
Not bad mind you......but you may struggle ....maybe not.....to get the compression to a sane range. The object is to keep the deck TIGHT. Do not adjust compression by adding deck height....especially on a type 4.
On a type 4.....really with most any engine....the heads, deck and valve size are everything.
The stock stock 1.7L had smaller valves.....to generate intake velocity to overcome compromises with the stock cam that were largely made to support the fuel injection. Since the shorter stroke 1.7L/1.8L had less issues generating velocity.....and since you can now use a cam with better breathing characteristics in the first place....you can up the valve size and still have good velocity.
But....you want to be absolutely sure that YOU get to choose the valve size.....and not have to be stuck with whatever comes in a pre-packaged head deal.
The stock 1.7L had 39mm x 33mm valves. They had high velocity but were absolutely limiting to making any more HP than the engine already had....which at 82hp was pretty damn good.....but it ran hotter than it should have. They were barely adequate.
If you can tune the injection a little and put in a better breathing cam and exhaust.....the 1.7L can greatly benefit from the stock valve size that the stock 1.8L came with....which were 41mm x 35mm. Absolute maximum on the 1.7L with lots of tuning....and due to the fact that you physically cannot fit anything larger....is 42x36.
The stock 1.8L..... on 914 and 412....came with 41mm x 35mm.....which I think is just about perfect....bht sadly for that engine .....the benefit was wasted.....because they dumped compression and remapped ignition timing.
The 1.8L of the VW 412 and Porsche 914....could have and should have been.....an easy 100hp engine.....but they "smogged" it.
Putting in a real cam, leaving compression even the same as the 1.7L at 8.2:1.....and a better exhaust and ignition....even and especially with the factory stock L-jet .....should have netted a clean 15-18 hp increase to about 97-100 hp.
Keep in mind....the Euro 1.8L in the 412.....had 8.6:1 compression, twin solex 40s and a little different cam.....and put out 85 hp.
The US version with the same limiting cam as the 1.7L.....had 7.8:1 compression....and put out 75 hp.....10 hp less....and 7 hp less than the 1.7L.....mainly due to low compression alone....AND it had fuel injection!
The US 1.8L with its nice valve sizes....and 116cc more than the 1.7L...should have picked up a clean 8-10hp if it could have kept even the moderately high compression of the 1.7L.....and if it could have had the Euro version 8.6:1 compression.....with its injection.....it could have picked up most of another 5-7 more hp.
Add a better cam.....and the 1.8L should have been an easy 100hp.
So......the 1910. On an injected engine it "might" need slightly larger valves than a 1.8....but I doubt it.
I would stick with 42mm x 36mm. I would also look for a cam that works for the street to make max power and torque between 4500 and 5500.....and good torque down to 2500 rpm....especially with bug gearing. Probably a Web 86 would do just fine with twin large single barrels like even the stock 40s.
I would have your 1.7L heads rebuilt. In this way....you can be sure of exact valve size and quality.....you can assemble them with solid spacers, set exact geometry and use Porsche 911 style adjusters. Most importantly...you can be sure the seats are pressed in properly.
The stock 1.7L/1.8L rods will be just fine.
Get programmable ignition.....either a CB black box or crank fire.
This will be a nice engine. It should see 100 hp if tumed well. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
Ray, Your information is amazing. I can't believe how much you know. Sometimes it feels like you are speaking a different language  In all seriousness, I'm grateful for your help and patience. Cant wait to get cracking down on this engine. Next week I have off of school, so im (hopefully) going to get a ton of work done on the engine currently using up the stand. Then i can get working on my type 4
_________________
Filthy Buggers NJ
73 Super German Looker
68 Panel Bus Dave Brown Racing Engines
62 Notchback
60 Mango Ragtop Camper Bug Project Thread
63 Ragtop Project
73 Auto Westfalia
2056 Type 4 Engine Build Thread
Filthy Buggers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Onceler
Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2010
Posts: 1646
Location: Indiana
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
Congratulations Sshulk! Way to keep on moving.
_________________
1972 Karmann Ghia |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23112
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
| sshulk wrote: |
| Ray, Your information is amazing. I can't believe how much you know. Sometimes it feels like you are speaking a different language In all seriousness, I'm grateful for your help and patience. Cant wait to get cracking down on this engine. Next week I have off of school, so im (hopefully) going to get a ton of work done on the engine currently using up the stand. Then i can get working on my type 4 |
Thank you for the compliment!.....but....I mainly know a certain range of engines and parts....especially type 4 and a whole lot about materials and chemicals, specific fuel systems and brakes.
In general engine knowledge....especially type 1....and high performance/ racing....there are many on this forum...that know far more than I do.
Keep reading and researching......you are on the right track.....just do not get in a hurry!
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nextgen
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6137
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theKbStockpiler
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012
Posts: 2316
Location: Rust Belt
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
If you have rebuildable 1.7 heads stay with what you know is good. The gamble is not worth the gains.
A 1.9 is as big as you should go with a stock valve sizes with a 1.7. If your not going into higher RPM's you will be better off.
Also a aggressive cam is going to lower your static compression ratio.
Maybe a real machinist will chime in on this idea but if a flycut could be started away from the cylinder wall and tapered in it would be a easy cheap way to get around stepping the head to lower compression.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 27658
Location: Colorado Springs
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7l type 4 with a 96mm bore. |
|
|
IMO the 1700 heads would be the BEST ones to have for any setup under 2000cc.
....... adequate valve size, slightly smaller runners.... should work great with carbs. The chambers will need some carving or dishing of the pistons to get the CR down, but it's not THAT hard to do
If you build it over 2000cc then the 1700 heads are just equal to the others, because they all need lots of work, except the big valve ones from the 914....but you'll never find any of those. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
