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thechief86
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 860
Location: middle tn
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 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:31 pm Post subject: 4 lug conversion? |
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Hey guys, I've been in and out of air-cooled VW's over the last 20 years or so, and have amassed quite a few spare parts from various years.
My last running and driving VW was a 62 beetle, which got sold when I was laid off in the wake of Covid.
Now, I'm back to work, and have acquired a Rail Buggy which has a 5 lug ball joint front beam, and a 5 lug swingaxle rear setup.
All of the 5 lug brake stuff is basically unusable other than the drums themselves, but I have backing plates, drums, shoes, and wheel cylinders all laying around in good condition for 4 lug stuff.
Does anyone know where I could find part numbers for the correct bearings to run 4 lug drums on an early ball joint beam? I know I can take it apart and measure everything, but I figured surely someone else has already done this....
Same with the rear, it looks like everything will work, but I haven't tried it yet. Any pointers on potential incompatibilities there?
I know I could just purchase everything I need to make 5 lug work, or even go to 4 wheel disc and all that, but I'm trying to do this as cheap as I can for just a farm toy that will likely never be put on the road.
Thanks for any insight on this![/i]
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"A poor workman always blames his parts... Ya gotta have skillz to hang junk." -johnnypan |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 13340
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:13 am Post subject: Re: 4 lug conversion? |
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The 4-lug backing plates will work on the ball joint front with the 5-lug drums, as should the 4-lug backing plate on the rear… depending on what axle/drum configuration is currently on there.
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Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16724
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:58 am Post subject: Re: 4 lug conversion? |
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| thechief86 wrote: |
Now, I'm back to work, and have acquired a Rail Buggy which has a 5 lug ball joint front beam, and a 5 lug swingaxle rear setup.
<...>
Does anyone know where I could find part numbers for the correct bearings to run 4 lug drums on an early ball joint beam? |
I think I did this mental exercise before... looking for a bearing set (bearing+race) that would mount to the early ('66~early '68 ) spindle and then fit the race into the later drum openings. I used the Timken tapered bearing catalog (part#s in parenthesis) to find the different sets of bearings and their dimensions. Here is what I found:
'66 Beetle Front Outer (30304)
Race = OD 2.0472" x 0.5118" (07204)
Bearing = ID 0.7874" x 0.6398" (07079)
'69 Beetle Front Outer (SET1)
Race = OD 1.57" x 0.42" (LM11710)
Bearing = ID 0.6875" x 0.575" (LM11749)
'66 Beetle Front Inner (SET4)
Race = OD 1.98" x 0.42" (L44610)
Bearing = ID 1.0625" x 0.58" (L44649)
'69 Beetle Front Inner (SET8)
Race = OD 1.98" x 0.42" (LM45410)
Bearing = ID 1.1417" x 0.58" (LM45449)
The inner bearings are pretty straight forward. The '66 SET4 has the correct dimensions. The race OD is the same between the early and late ball joint spindles so could be used on either drum.
Unfortunately, the smaller outer bearing set does not work. Timken only list one bearing set with the proper ID to fit the early spindle. There is no other bearing set in their catalog with the proper ID to fit the early spindle and also fit the later drums.
So, the solution is to replace your front spindles with later ('69-later) Beetle drum spindles. This may require you to also replace the outer tie rod ends on each side as the '69-later spindles used a larger diameter opening for the tie rod ends. This basically converts you early ball joint beam into a '69-later ball joint beam.
| thechief86 wrote: |
Same with the rear, it looks like everything will work, but I haven't tried it yet. Any pointers on potential incompatibilities there?
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4-bolt drums are wider than the earlier wide-5 drums. The length of the splined area of the rear axles are longer for '68-later Beetles. So while the 4-lug drums will slide onto the ends of the axle shafts, they will be too thick and there will be insufficient exposed threads on the axles to properly tighten the axle nut.
The only solution here is to take the rear drums to a machine shop and have them shave (turn) the snout of the drum down evenly/squarly so the splined width of the later drum matches the splined width of the earlier axles. There is one advantage of this method... the later drums have a larger surface area between the shoes and the drum ID which means better stopping power.
This pic illustrates the problem:
The left two axles are the '66-earlier axles. They are overall shorter and have a short splined area (short/short).
The right two axles are '68-later axles with the long axle and long splined area (long/long).
The single middle axle is a '67-only with a longer axle length but the same short splined area as the '66-earlier (long/short).
FYI, if you were going the other way... early drums on later axles... there is an aftermarket spacer that you place between the axle nut and the drum so the axle nut lines up with the threaded portion of the axle.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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thechief86
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 860
Location: middle tn
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: 4 lug conversion? |
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AWESOME.
Thank you guys for the help! These answers were way above what I actually expected. I'll start looking for some 68 and up spindles then.
Would be way cool to find thing spindles for a little more ground clearance on this buggy!
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"A poor workman always blames his parts... Ya gotta have skillz to hang junk." -johnnypan |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 13340
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:43 am Post subject: Re: 4 lug conversion? |
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If you’re willing to keep the 5-lug pattern then you don’t need bearings or spindles, just bolt the backing plates up & reassemble it.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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thechief86
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 860
Location: middle tn
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:33 am Post subject: Re: 4 lug conversion? |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
| If you’re willing to keep the 5-lug pattern then you don’t need bearings or spindles, just bolt the backing plates up & reassemble it. |
The only backing plates I have that are usable are the newer 4 lug ones. Are they compatible with the 5 lug drums? I'd be totally fine with doing that! It would be so much easier!
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"A poor workman always blames his parts... Ya gotta have skillz to hang junk." -johnnypan |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 13340
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:09 am Post subject: Re: 4 lug conversion? |
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| thechief86 wrote: |
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| If you’re willing to keep the 5-lug pattern then you don’t need bearings or spindles, just bolt the backing plates up & reassemble it. |
The only backing plates I have that are usable are the newer 4 lug ones. Are they compatible with the 5 lug drums? I'd be totally fine with doing that! It would be so much easier! |
YES! That’s what I was trying to tell you.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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thechief86
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 860
Location: middle tn
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:09 am Post subject: Re: 4 lug conversion? |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
| thechief86 wrote: |
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| If you’re willing to keep the 5-lug pattern then you don’t need bearings or spindles, just bolt the backing plates up & reassemble it. |
The only backing plates I have that are usable are the newer 4 lug ones. Are they compatible with the 5 lug drums? I'd be totally fine with doing that! It would be so much easier! |
YES! That’s what I was trying to tell you. |
Nice. I'll head down that path then. Thanks. I owe you guys a beer sometime.
Wonder if I'll need narrower shoes? I can get those cheap, just not as convenient as the ones that are already on my backing plates on the shelf lol.
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"A poor workman always blames his parts... Ya gotta have skillz to hang junk." -johnnypan |
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