Help! Vanagon Syndrome?

[laroche.chris]

Driving thru Montana, naturally, in a '91 vanagon I've only had for a month (though it had some thorough maintenance and is in great shape.)
20 miles east of Missoula it starts to burp.
Pull over, check fluids, nothing wrong.
Get back on the freeway. 50 miles Further it does it again.
Pull off, stop, googled "vanagon sputtering highway" and learned of the vanagon syndrome.
Took side roads into Butte going no faster than 55 with no problems.
It's Sunday afternoon. Mechanics are closed. Destinstion is billings.

1. Is this the vanagon syndrome, and what's the solution?
2. How unsafe is it to drive at slow speeds? Butte ain't the worst place, but...
3. Any mechanic recommendations in Butte? Bozeman? Billings?

Thanks!

[Microbusdeluxe]

We got a dose of the syndrome coming back from Baja this spring. If you can't get the little harness from one of the VW guys (Go Westy/Van Cafe, etc), you can try a tactic that actually worked for us until we got home (600+ miles).

Vary your highway speed. Run it up to 65 or so, a couple of minutes later let off the gas and drop your speed to 55+, get back up to, oh I don't know, let's try 70, then back to 60 for a few more minutes. Be the annoying old guy who can't maintain a steady speed. It works! There is a reason for it, having to do with the carbon track in the AFM.

See this discussion for more info:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=674159&highlight=vanagon+syndrome
_________________
'69 Squareback RIP
'65 21 window deluxe sold before the price spike, damn it.
'70 rhd bay now a taxi in South Sudan
'81 Westy sold
'89 hightop Westy Joker syncro 16" now with Bostig!

[Wildthings]

Vanagon syndrome should disappear for a bit when you cut the engine off and then turn it back on. Don't pull the key from the ignition as you do this though or you will loose your steering . Probably 75% of the time people complain about Vanagon Syndrome it is going to be something else.

Running a ground wire from the AFM housing to the engine block will help a bit and is about the lowest tech thing one can do. The capacitor trick works, but of course you need a capacitor and the tools and knowledge to install it. Even if your problem is not Vanagon Syndrome the capacitor can smooth out your idle.

[laroche.chris]

ThAnk you for replying!
After reading the thread I don't think I have the syndrome.
I can barely get it to 65. I can cruise at 55 for a mile
Or two, then it starts coughing.
Sometimes I put it in neutral, coast, turn it off and turn it back on. Runs well for a few miles, almost reaches 65 mph. Then starts all over again.
Just added an additive STP fuel injurctor cleaner cause I had to try something.


Other ideas?

Thanks again!

[Microbusdeluxe]

Air filter & fuel filter are cheap and easy to do at the side of the road.
_________________
'69 Squareback RIP
'65 21 window deluxe sold before the price spike, damn it.
'70 rhd bay now a taxi in South Sudan
'81 Westy sold
'89 hightop Westy Joker syncro 16" now with Bostig!

[0to60in6min]

check for exhaust leak on pipe connector before the O2 sensor....

[laroche.chris]

Thanks again for the help! I thought I was in the clear, but...

The additive worked wonders (STP fuel injector cleaner). Cruised at full Montana interstate speeds for two hours. 30 miles from my destination -Billings- it started acting up again. By this point I didn't care, I'd put it in neutral, coast a bit, turn ignition off and back on when I started to slow down.
Repeat.
That was about a 4 mile routine, and that got me into town.

Alas there aren't a lot of VW mechanics in Billings, nor vanagons. I took it a mechanic referred by some family. Nice guy, but started off with some theories to the malfunction that I thought weren't well-based. First he said it was the heat, then he said it was the ethanol in the fuel. (He also said he hadn't seen a vanagon in 15 years). Then he looked at the fuel filter -which was original- and claimed that was the problem. He took that off and sure enough, it rattled like a spray can.

Problem solved?

What he didn't do was any sort of diagnostic or test drive afterwards. I drove it home and this morning took it back on the highway, and the problem was almost worse. So instead of taking it back to the first guy, I took it to another shop that worked on German autos. I didn't hear from them all day so I called them up near closing. They said they were stumped, and the technician did some research and thinks its the 'Vanagon syndrome". I said I thought that at first too, but the pattern I experienced was very different than what I read about the syndrome. (They also said they tested the fuel pressure, and that was fine). They were going to run some tests, but it wouldn't be ready today, earliest would be in the morning.

Also, I debated taking my VW to the dealer in town. I called them on the phone and asked if they worked much on vanagons, and they said no 'but if it's a VW we can fix it". I didn't get the best feeling from them.

Also, none of these places have many yelp reviews, or any reviews at all for that matter!

So that's that update. We're supposed to make a journey to the family homestead up in far NE Montana on the Canadian border, 6 hours from here, the closet city (though maybe there are shops in Saskatchewan?) There are reputable vanagon mechanics in Bozeman and Missoula. Do I just use lots of fuel additives on the rest of my journey? Do we risk this trek to the desolate Montana Hi Line? Can I throw it on a coal train for a ride back to Seattle?

Thoughts?

Thanks again!

[Wildthings]

Try a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil, 2-cycle oil, or just synthetic motor oil in a full tank of gas and see what that does.

[davideric9]

My guess is O2 sensor. Intermittent and failing in the rich end of the correction, causing the van to flood. Turning off the key and restarting the van causes the ECU to ignore the O2 sensor for a minute or two.

But this case calls for some testing, best thing for this is the SHOEBOX ELECTRONIX diagnostic tool. Most mechanics don't have one, so they take a best guess, throw parts at the van and hope for the best. But most of the problems are seeable with the test equipment.
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia, stock (bought 1994)
1986 Syncro Westfalia SVX, 3 knob (bought 2008)
1987 Westfalia (bought 2010)
1988 Wolfsburg GL (bought 2012)

[uberaudi]

Possible failing control relay?

I had a similar issue when chasing down some fuel hesitation in a buddies Syncro that I borrowed for a weekend trip a while back. I replaced both relays (the ignition and fuel pump) under the black box in the engine compartment and continued on hundreds of miles until the end of the trip without issue.

This may not be the root of your specific issue, but it's a simple replacement that could potentially keep you motoring.

[Wildthings]

If it is obviously running rich it could be a grounded coax going to the O2 sensor, common problem. A meter is all you need to diagnose. In fact you can do a full electrical diagnosis in about 15 minutes with only a DVOM meter.

[RicoS]

[laroche.chris]

Thanks again everyone for chiming in!
So far I got three responses saying "O2 sensor!" And one post saying, "no, it's not the O2 sensor..."

I'll try forwarding this to the mechanic in town.

Anyone else have opinions? Please share!

[RicoS]

[davideric9]

My point was... this is not a guessing game, its a trouble shooting, testing components with VOM against known values game. If everything checks out then its an intermittent problem. The shoebox ECU tester is great because you can see the values of the sensors while driving, so when the problem occurs you can see what is wrong.
As for O2 sensor, I include the wiring to this as part of the system. Bad engine ground included. AGAIN, check everything in the digifant system with meter to find the trouble.

You may have a Vanagon Syndrome harness, can you confirm that you do not have this harness?
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia, stock (bought 1994)
1986 Syncro Westfalia SVX, 3 knob (bought 2008)
1987 Westfalia (bought 2010)
1988 Wolfsburg GL (bought 2012)

[danfromsyr]

diagnostic/testing

I've heard tell from a trusted vanagon source of same symptoms from a iffy fuel pump connector in the Pass side fire wall in the engine compartment.
*and I did have similar symptoms when my fuel pump was failing after/during long runs..
though I have no idea if/why it would be impacted by cycling the IGN switch..
a faulty IGN switch can be bypassed by connecting (hot wiring) the fuel pump directly to the +12v on the back of the Alt or the post in the black box on the Drivers side of the firewall.

the fuel pump takes some amps, and if not getting a good constant electrical source can surge and sputter the engine..

this may not be your issue, but it's very nearly free to inspect, clean and possibly remedy.

pull the connector, clean the mating surfaces of the wires and the grounds under the coil..

it's located here, you'll have the 2pole connector.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw//forum/viewtopic.php?p=7731346

_________________

[RicoS]

[davideric9]

Regarding syndrome. I had this experience over 20 years ago and took the van to the dealer when they still worked on them. They had the van for a week and never found the problem, comped me all the labor and asked me to pay for the parts, like new ECU. Fast forward a few years I went to another dealer and they said I need the Vanagon syndrome harness. I still drive this van, and it's been great ever since. The syndrome is real.
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia, stock (bought 1994)
1986 Syncro Westfalia SVX, 3 knob (bought 2008)
1987 Westfalia (bought 2010)
1988 Wolfsburg GL (bought 2012)

[RicoS]

[Abscate]

The concept that you can descibe your symptoms on the internet and get the correct fix by democratic response is fundamentally flawed. Spend some time learning to use troubleshooting tools before your trip, and you become much more self sufficient, and can even present data for analysis instead of 'it was running great and then all of a sudden...."
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