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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20283
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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 Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 11:47 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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If you use those long (end casting) axle tubes, you will need long axles with long splines, and offset spring plates.
If you want to use notched (not offset) spring plates, you must lengthen the axle tubes by 1 1/8" and use long/long axles.
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tdubz510
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2019
Posts: 54
Location: CA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2023 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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Wanting to get rid of my reduction boxes and drive my bus more on long road trips at freeway speeds.
I have a recently rebuilt 3.88/.82 small nut Type 2 gearbox on my 61 camper with stock wheels and tires and a 1776cc engine. I'm considering using my bus transmission with a straight axle conversion. I think I will need to flip the diff or something..
My friend has a complete straight axle with bug box, but his bus was lower than what I want when he had it installed. I'm ok with a 3.5" front and 4" rear lowering of the bus, but not more.
QUESTION: Does the Bug Box straight axle conversion lower it more than if I used my Type 2 center section? Or, did my friend use dropped or lowered spring plates to get the 6-8"" drop his bus had? (He's unavailable for comment).
Thanks for your help and patience! |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20283
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2023 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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The trans center section has zero effect on the ride height. Only gearing and final drive when calculated with tire diameter. The bus center section is nearly identical to the bug center section, the only difference is what axles are installed and the R&P rotation.
Drop spindles up front, and a straight axle setup out back can be adjusted to achieve perfectly level ride height, and it looks and drives excellent.
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tdubz510
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2019
Posts: 54
Location: CA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2023 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
The trans center section has zero effect on the ride height. Only gearing and final drive when calculated with tire diameter. The bus center section is nearly identical to the bug center section, the only difference is what axles are installed and the R&P rotation.
Drop spindles up front, and a straight axle setup out back can be adjusted to achieve perfectly level ride height, and it looks and drives excellent. |
Thank you, cdennisg. Is there a way to calculate a desired RPM like 3250-3500??
3.88/.82 , 27" tires , 1776cc |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20283
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2023 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| tdubz510 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
The trans center section has zero effect on the ride height. Only gearing and final drive when calculated with tire diameter. The bus center section is nearly identical to the bug center section, the only difference is what axles are installed and the R&P rotation.
Drop spindles up front, and a straight axle setup out back can be adjusted to achieve perfectly level ride height, and it looks and drives excellent. |
Thank you, cdennisg. Is there a way to calculate a desired RPM like 3250-3500??
3.88/.82 , 27" tires , 1776cc |
I know that calculator exists, but I'm not sure where.
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Daddybus
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2000
Posts: 1653
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 10:59 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| tdubz510 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
The trans center section has zero effect on the ride height. Only gearing and final drive when calculated with tire diameter. The bus center section is nearly identical to the bug center section, the only difference is what axles are installed and the R&P rotation.
Drop spindles up front, and a straight axle setup out back can be adjusted to achieve perfectly level ride height, and it looks and drives excellent. |
Thank you, cdennisg. Is there a way to calculate a desired RPM like 3250-3500??
3.88/.82 , 27" tires , 1776cc |
I know that calculator exists, but I'm not sure where. |
3.88 with a .82 is going to be way too much gear for a 1776 to push...unless you always drive down hill or are on the salt flats at Bonneville |
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tdubz510
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2019
Posts: 54
Location: CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| Daddybus wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| tdubz510 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
The trans center section has zero effect on the ride height. Only gearing and final drive when calculated with tire diameter. The bus center section is nearly identical to the bug center section, the only difference is what axles are installed and the R&P rotation.
Drop spindles up front, and a straight axle setup out back can be adjusted to achieve perfectly level ride height, and it looks and drives excellent. |
Thank you, cdennisg. Is there a way to calculate a desired RPM like 3250-3500??
3.88/.82 , 27" tires , 1776cc |
I know that calculator exists, but I'm not sure where. |
3.88 with a .82 is going to be way too much gear for a 1776 to push...unless you always drive down hill or are on the salt flats at Bonneville |
Really? So will my RPM's be really high if I'm pushing 65mph with a 1776 and 3.88 with a 0.82? Not sure what you mean by "way too much gear". What should a 1776 have? |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20283
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| tdubz510 wrote: |
| Daddybus wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| tdubz510 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
The trans center section has zero effect on the ride height. Only gearing and final drive when calculated with tire diameter. The bus center section is nearly identical to the bug center section, the only difference is what axles are installed and the R&P rotation.
Drop spindles up front, and a straight axle setup out back can be adjusted to achieve perfectly level ride height, and it looks and drives excellent. |
Thank you, cdennisg. Is there a way to calculate a desired RPM like 3250-3500??
3.88/.82 , 27" tires , 1776cc |
I know that calculator exists, but I'm not sure where. |
3.88 with a .82 is going to be way too much gear for a 1776 to push...unless you always drive down hill or are on the salt flats at Bonneville |
Really? So will my RPM's be really high if I'm pushing 65mph with a 1776 and 3.88 with a 0.82? Not sure what you mean by "way too much gear". What should a 1776 have? |
Pretty sure he means the gearing is way too tall. Not enough RPM at a given speed for the amount of power your engine can provide.
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tdubz510
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2019
Posts: 54
Location: CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| tdubz510 wrote: |
| Daddybus wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| tdubz510 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
The trans center section has zero effect on the ride height. Only gearing and final drive when calculated with tire diameter. The bus center section is nearly identical to the bug center section, the only difference is what axles are installed and the R&P rotation.
Drop spindles up front, and a straight axle setup out back can be adjusted to achieve perfectly level ride height, and it looks and drives excellent. |
Thank you, cdennisg. Is there a way to calculate a desired RPM like 3250-3500??
3.88/.82 , 27" tires , 1776cc |
I know that calculator exists, but I'm not sure where. |
3.88 with a .82 is going to be way too much gear for a 1776 to push...unless you always drive down hill or are on the salt flats at Bonneville |
Really? So will my RPM's be really high if I'm pushing 65mph with a 1776 and 3.88 with a 0.82? Not sure what you mean by "way too much gear". What should a 1776 have? |
Pretty sure he means the gearing is way too tall. Not enough RPM at a given
speed for the amount of power your engine can provide. |
I guess I need a schooling on "too tall of a gear"? I am clearly a newbie. Does that mean it will take a while to get up to a high enough RPM to shift with my 1776? Maybe my transmission guy gave me the wrong numbers? My 1st gear is really a short run til I shift to 2nd... and 2nd to 3rd is pretty short run as well. I was cruising at 70mph on a 200 mile road trip. I'm confused, sorry guys. |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20283
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| tdubz510 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| tdubz510 wrote: |
| Daddybus wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| tdubz510 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
The trans center section has zero effect on the ride height. Only gearing and final drive when calculated with tire diameter. The bus center section is nearly identical to the bug center section, the only difference is what axles are installed and the R&P rotation.
Drop spindles up front, and a straight axle setup out back can be adjusted to achieve perfectly level ride height, and it looks and drives excellent. |
Thank you, cdennisg. Is there a way to calculate a desired RPM like 3250-3500??
3.88/.82 , 27" tires , 1776cc |
I know that calculator exists, but I'm not sure where. |
3.88 with a .82 is going to be way too much gear for a 1776 to push...unless you always drive down hill or are on the salt flats at Bonneville |
Really? So will my RPM's be really high if I'm pushing 65mph with a 1776 and 3.88 with a 0.82? Not sure what you mean by "way too much gear". What should a 1776 have? |
Pretty sure he means the gearing is way too tall. Not enough RPM at a given
speed for the amount of power your engine can provide. |
I guess I need a schooling on "too tall of a gear"? I am clearly a newbie. Does that mean it will take a while to get up to a high enough RPM to shift with my 1776? Maybe my transmission guy gave me the wrong numbers? My 1st gear is really a short run til I shift to 2nd... and 2nd to 3rd is pretty short run as well. I was cruising at 70mph on a 200 mile road trip. I'm confused, sorry guys. |
OK. Have you ever ridden a 10 speed, or maybe a 21 speed bicycle? Shifting to the small gear up front and the big gear out back makes it really easy to pedal, but as you change gears and go faster, it requires more and more strength and energy to keep your speed. When you are at the largest cog up front and the smallest cog out back going 25 MPH, it gets really tiring to pedal that hard and keep the pace.
That is a tall gear, and that is what your little VW engine is trying to accomplish. VW engines have a sweet spot in their RPM range for maximum power, maximum efficiency, and ideal cooling fan speed. Generally that is in the 3200-3800 RPM range. What you want is your final drive ration to match your ideal highway cruising speed, and your ideal RPM. If your gearing is too tall, your RPM might be too low to have the power to push the bus down the road, and your cooling fan is turning too slow to keep the engine cool as designed.
All of these things need to be brought into play to make things work. If you only cruise your bus to the local show on weekends, and maybe for ice cream on Sunday with the kids, it is less important. If you drive your bus for hundreds or thousands of miles of highway seeking the ultimate camp spot or swap meet, you gotta get this shit dialed in.
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20283
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| tdubz510 wrote: |
Wanting to get rid of my reduction boxes and drive my bus more on long road trips at freeway speeds.
I have a recently rebuilt 3.88/.82 small nut Type 2 gearbox on my 61 camper with stock wheels and tires and a 1776cc engine. I'm considering using my bus transmission with a straight axle conversion. I think I will need to flip the diff or something..
|
I had to go back to see what you are starting with. That tall fourth and .82 ring and pinion combined with the small nut RGB gearing might have worked out well with stock diameter bus tires, but when you go to straight axle and lose that RGB reduction, things change drastically.
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tdubz510
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2019
Posts: 54
Location: CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2023 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
OK. Have you ever ridden a 10 speed, or maybe a 21 speed bicycle? Shifting to the small gear up front and the big gear out back makes it really easy to pedal, but as you change gears and go faster, it requires more and more strength and energy to keep your speed. When you are at the largest cog up front and the smallest cog out back going 25 MPH, it gets really tiring to pedal that hard and keep the pace.
That is a tall gear, and that is what your little VW engine is trying to accomplish. VW engines have a sweet spot in their RPM range for maximum power, maximum efficiency, and ideal cooling fan speed. Generally that is in the 3200-3800 RPM range. What you want is your final drive ration to match your ideal highway cruising speed, and your ideal RPM. If your gearing is too tall, your RPM might be too low to have the power to push the bus down the road, and your cooling fan is turning too slow to keep the engine cool as designed.
All of these things need to be brought into play to make things work. If you only cruise your bus to the local show on weekends, and maybe for ice cream on Sunday with the kids, it is less important. If you drive your bus for hundreds or thousands of miles of highway seeking the ultimate camp spot or swap meet, you gotta get this shit dialed in. |
YES! I am really trying to get this dialed in because I DO want to drive this bus to lots of campouts and shows. So, how do I figure out what my gearing should be for a 1776cc cruising at 60-65mph on 27" tires?
Also, if the 3.88 with 0.82 4th is too tall, should I have a 1904cc, and get rid of the 1776cc? |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20283
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 11:37 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| tdubz510 wrote: |
YES! I am really trying to get this dialed in because I DO want to drive this bus to lots of campouts and shows. So, how do I figure out what my gearing should be for a 1776cc cruising at 60-65mph on 27" tires?
Also, if the 3.88 with 0.82 4th is too tall, should I have a 1904cc, and get rid of the 1776cc? |
Found this in the performance forum FAQ's...
http://johnmaherracing.com/calculators/gear-ratio-calculator/
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tdubz510
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2019
Posts: 54
Location: CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| NUTSFORBUSES wrote: |
| If you're not trying to install really wide tires on this project, just go forward. You can get some rear disc's from AC industries that mount-up to the axle-but wait until you see where this falls-clearance, b/c all buses can differ a little. Mine IS beetle, but earlier and I have the OG bus spring plates. The most important addition was the Mid Mount to keep it from twisting off the front trans mount<a lot of power 2332. You will also find a little bit of raising the front as you lower the back, not much, but keep it mind. 15's allow for a lot of tire choice. Your 65 should have 14's and I would do that also in the front(15's) it's only 1/2 " higher w/o tire considerations. I did mine w the help and knowledge from cdennisg, maybe poke at his head a bit, he knows his stuff. |
Nice lowering job! Where do I find this Mid Mount for the trans? |
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chris henry
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2004
Posts: 867
Location: porterville ,CA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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| tdubz510 wrote: |
| NUTSFORBUSES wrote: |
| If you're not trying to install really wide tires on this project, just go forward. You can get some rear disc's from AC industries that mount-up to the axle-but wait until you see where this falls-clearance, b/c all buses can differ a little. Mine IS beetle, but earlier and I have the OG bus spring plates. The most important addition was the Mid Mount to keep it from twisting off the front trans mount<a lot of power 2332. You will also find a little bit of raising the front as you lower the back, not much, but keep it mind. 15's allow for a lot of tire choice. Your 65 should have 14's and I would do that also in the front(15's) it's only 1/2 " higher w/o tire considerations. I did mine w the help and knowledge from cdennisg, maybe poke at his head a bit, he knows his stuff. |
Nice lowering job! Where do I find this Mid Mount for the trans? |
Wolfgang international makes an awesome mid mount. bolts right in, zero drilling and zero welding. Also keep in mind that a 27 inch tall tire is great for a stock height bus but you will probably be stressed to squeeze something that big in once lowered. Going with a lower profile tire like a 65 series will not only fit better but will also lower your final gearing down some making the combo a bettter match for your engine. |
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