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doc hopper
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Joined: December 08, 2006
Posts: 588
Location: California
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 Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:46 am Post subject: New One on Me (Brakes) |
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Discovered that the braking of my right rear wheel is nonexistent .... and has been for who knows how long? (Last brake job was 2009)
I put the bus on a lift, had someone hold down the brake pedal, the other three wheels lock up tight as normal. The right rear .... nothing.... spins like a good thing.
Emergency brake cable works on it just fine.
Haven't taken the drum off yet. Anyone seen this before?
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Abscate 
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Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 23958
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:56 am Post subject: Re: New One on Me (Brakes) |
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Probably a rusted up wheel cylinder. The last time you replaced your brake fluid on its 2 year maintenance schedule...  ) did it look rusty at all?
The piston freezes, they no longer push the shoes against the drum.
You probably will need a new one - if they rust up that bad, they don't hone out too well.
You can save replacing the other three by replacing the fluid while you do this job!
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 26024
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:08 am Post subject: Re: New One on Me (Brakes) |
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Agreed probably need to change brake fluid much more often. Up here in rainy PNW was taking the cylinders apart for cleaning out of rust and inspecting every year to two year or 30,000 miles which ever happened first. Standard DOT 3 brake fluid attracts water right out of the air and the water becomes one with the fluid. High enough water content and the insides of the cylinders rust up. High enough brake temperature can cause the water to turn to steam, which in turn can cause sudden brake pedal to the floor failure because the boiling point of the fluid has been lowered so much.
Finally switched over to silicon DOT 5 brake fluid and after eight years had a wheel cylinder start to weep. So took them apart for the cleaning out and inspection. Had to replace one and install new piston seals in the rest, and apply Sil-Glyde you can get from NAPA for a brake cylinder paste. Still good to burp each wheel cylinder once or twice every year or two to get out any water that might have gotten in and settled in the lowest parts of the hydraulic brake system due to separating like water and oil will do.
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GLHTurbo
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Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 1376
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:39 am Post subject: Re: New One on Me (Brakes) |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
Agreed probably need to change brake fluid much more often. Up here in rainy PNW was taking the cylinders apart for cleaning out of rust and inspecting every year to two year or 30,000 miles which ever happened first. Standard DOT 3 brake fluid attracts water right out of the air and the water becomes one with the fluid. High enough water content and the insides of the cylinders rust up. High enough brake temperature can cause the water to turn to steam, which in turn can cause sudden brake pedal to the floor failure because the boiling point of the fluid has been lowered so much.
Finally switched over to silicon DOT 5 brake fluid and after eight years had a wheel cylinder start to weep. So took them apart for the cleaning out and inspection. Had to replace one and install new piston seals in the rest, and apply Sil-Glyde you can get from NAPA for a brake cylinder paste. Still good to burp each wheel cylinder once or twice every year or two to get out any water that might have gotten in and settled in the lowest parts of the hydraulic brake system due to separating like water and oil will do. |
The dot5 doesn't swell up the rubber? I'm about to fill and bleed my brake system fo the first time, new hard and soft lines, rebuilt 944 calipers, new Chinese 67 MC. Been on the fence as to which fluid.
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 26024
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: Re: New One on Me (Brakes) |
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| GLHTurbo wrote: |
The dot5 doesn't swell up the rubber? I'm about to fill and bleed my brake system fo the first time, new hard and soft lines, rebuilt 944 calipers, new Chinese 67 MC. Been on the fence as to which fluid. |
Have heard of that happening. So we change to DOT 5 either by doing so when:
1. Installing all new rubber.
2. Take the cylinders apart and blow out the lines and wait about three weeks for DOT 3 to evaporate out before re-assembly, and pouring in the DOT 5.
If one's brake flex lines are over eight years or unknown might as well replace them. Then it is just that less of a problem to either install new MC and wheel cylinders or put new rubber piston seals in so they should last the eight or so years without failure. Since DOT 5 is more expensive than DOT 3, it behooves one to not cut corners. With a good base of new parts or at least cleaned, inspected, greased, used ones with new rubber you should not have to do all the tearing apart every year or two, and replacing the brake fluid. So in the long run the DOT 5 should be less expensive.
After all if one has rust in one brake cylinder, most likely there is rust in the others. Rust is a great abrasive, so rubber seals are going to fail sooner.
Have done searching on the WWW and best can tell is if you have old natural rubber brake parts you can have the rubber swell up. This was a big problem for British car enthusiasts, but since those old NOS stocks have been used up, that is not longer a problem with todays man made rubber seal materials.
So far we have changed over three buses, and two are daily drivers, with no problem with rubber swelling.
Since you are starting out with new brake system, you should be good to go!
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GLHTurbo
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Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 1376
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:21 am Post subject: Re: New One on Me (Brakes) |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| GLHTurbo wrote: |
The dot5 doesn't swell up the rubber? I'm about to fill and bleed my brake system fo the first time, new hard and soft lines, rebuilt 944 calipers, new Chinese 67 MC. Been on the fence as to which fluid. |
Have heard of that happening. So we change to DOT 5 either by doing so when:
1. Installing all new rubber.
2. Take the cylinders apart and blow out the lines and wait about three weeks for DOT 3 to evaporate out before re-assembly, and pouring in the DOT 5.
If one's brake flex lines are over eight years or unknown might as well replace them. Then it is just that less of a problem to either install new MC and wheel cylinders or put new rubber piston seals in so they should last the eight or so years without failure. Since DOT 5 is more expensive than DOT 3, it behooves one to not cut corners. With a good base of new parts or at least cleaned, inspected, greased, used ones with new rubber you should not have to do all the tearing apart every year or two, and replacing the brake fluid. So in the long run the DOT 5 should be less expensive.
After all if one has rust in one brake cylinder, most likely there is rust in the others. Rust is a great abrasive, so rubber seals are going to fail sooner.
Have done searching on the WWW and best can tell is if you have old natural rubber brake parts you can have the rubber swell up. This was a big problem for British car enthusiasts, but since those old NOS stocks have been used up, that is not longer a problem with todays man made rubber seal materials.
So far we have changed over three buses, and two are daily drivers, with no problem with rubber swelling.
Since you are starting out with new brake system, you should be good to go! |
Thanks! Glad to see someone have good luck using it. And just to clarify, this is for DOT 5 not DOT 5.1?
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 26024
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: Re: New One on Me (Brakes) |
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| GLHTurbo wrote: |
Thanks! Glad to see someone have good luck using it. And just to clarify, this is for DOT 5 not DOT 5.1? |
Glad to help. Should mention that so far have had between ten to over fifteen years now of using the DOT 5 brake fluid in the three buses. Did not do the burp bleeding of each wheel cylinder every year or two during all that time. Will this late Spring do so for first time. Hoping that will make the brake systems that more reliable longer, by keeping out the water/rust.
DOT 5 is silicon only.
DOT 5.1 is not. So not suggested by us.
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:40 am Post subject: Re: New One on Me (Brakes) |
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Here is a good article to read up on:
http://importnut.net/brakefluid.htm
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:58 am Post subject: Re: New One on Me (Brakes) |
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Only downside to DOT 5 brake fluid we have found is it is a little thicker than DOT 3. So when you go to pour it in, do so the night before (or longer is fine) you bleed the system so any bubbles caused by pouring the fluid can settle up and out. When you do bleed out the air, do not slam the pedal. Shock from slamming will cause the larger air bubbles in the system to turn into much smaller harder to bleed out bubbles.
If you do not use the pedal pump with a helper, use either gravity or pressure bleeding. Vacuum bleeding can all too easily suck air into the system right by the piston seals that are designed to keep pressure in and not out.
Other than that do make sure to when pedal pumping to either use the procedure for single circuit MC or dual MC, which ever you have. Using the single circuit with dual circuit will just run you around in circles...
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Braukuche
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Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11206
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: New One on Me (Brakes) |
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| doc hopper wrote: |
Discovered that the braking of my right rear wheel is nonexistent .... and has been for who knows how long? (Last brake job was 2009)
I put the bus on a lift, had someone hold down the brake pedal, the other three wheels lock up tight as normal. The right rear .... nothing.... spins like a good thing.
Emergency brake cable works on it just fine.
Haven't taken the drum off yet. Anyone seen this before? |
Change the rubber lines, probably collapses internally.
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Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 26024
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: New One on Me (Brakes) |
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| Braukuche wrote: |
Change the rubber lines, probably collapses internally. |
Could be, but doubt it. When that happens fluid/pressure can get into a wheel cylinder, but not all of that gets back out. So the brake on that wheel drags.
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flemcadiddlehopper
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Joined: December 05, 2011
Posts: 2345
Location: Kelowna, BC. Canada.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:40 am Post subject: Re: New One on Me (Brakes) |
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One important note on switching to DOT5.
Do not take shortcuts.
If you plan on reusing any part of the brake hydraulics, it must be removed , disassembled and cleaned thoroughly. Dot5 and Dot3 when combined become caustic, so one part left untreated will take out all of your parts.... not so bad when it's just your $12 wheel cylinders, but how about that hard to come by '67 master? or worse, those Porsche 997 Brembos.
Gordo.
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Clara
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Joined: June 14, 2003
Posts: 12615
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:44 am Post subject: Re: New One on Me (Brakes) |
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| flemcadiddlehopper wrote: |
One important note on switching to DOT5.
Do not take shortcuts.
If you plan on reusing any part of the brake hydraulics, it must be removed , disassembled and cleaned thoroughly. Dot5 and Dot3 when combined become caustic, so one part left untreated will take out all of your parts.... not so bad when it's just your $12 wheel cylinders, but how about that hard to come by '67 master? or worse, those Porsche 997 Brembos.
Gordo. |
Wasn't it was nice when wheel cylinders were $12? :)
FWIW, I like to adjust my brakes every 3K service, it's on the 3K service list. And I check to see if the wheel cylinder is oozing.
I like to bleed them every year. When you do this, you will tell if something freezes up or is clogged. Because then fluid doesn't come out the bleeder valve.
Flush the brakes about every three to five years to replace the old fluid that may have absorbed water. Your brake fluid should be clean and clear, not dark and icky. If it is black, it should be flushed. Pump the reservoir empty, then, use rubbing alcohol and a clean rag or lint free paper towel to clean the off the inside of it. Let air dry before filling with new clean fluid. It is normal that it's hard to tell the fluid level with clean fluid and a clean reservoir, but back lighting the reservoir with a shop light makes it easy to see.
My 53 sat for years, even though I did the brakes in 94 or so. Before driving to LA a few years ago I found the rear wheels were froze. Or maybe it was the front. Only one of four worked. I pulled the cylinders and unfroze them and cleaned them out and put new rubber seals in them IIRC. The fronts are impossible to find new. Ha ha cars parked then are now called barn finds. But no corrosion or leaks, which was odd I thought.
I had not been bleeding or flushing the system regularly. Or even driving it. Just saying.
If you want to see if it is the hose, undo the connection between hose and wheel cylinder. Step on brakes. Any fluid come out? Just take it a part and fix or replace what needs replacing. |
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Braukuche
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Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11206
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: New One on Me (Brakes) |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Braukuche wrote: |
Change the rubber lines, probably collapses internally. |
Could be, but doubt it. When that happens fluid/pressure can get into a wheel cylinder, but not all of that gets back out. So the brake on that wheel drags. |
It's been known to happen both ways. Easy to check, open the bleeder and have someone step on the pedal.
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Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now
1989 Westfalia |
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