windage tray

[oprn]

I am rebuilding a type 4 engine to put in a Buggy for street use. I keep hearing bits and hints about a factory windage tray how important is it? Should I tear it back down and install one? It is from a Bus so does not have one.

[hobbybob517]

Are you cornering like a maniac?
that's what they are for i believe.

(must add that i know nothing about type 4 engines)

also show some pics of the rebuild if you have any,

always love to see other peoples builds.
_________________
THE BUILD http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php

[raygreenwood]

I think its quite important. It was one of numerous reasons...the rest being described by others as factory installed variations of the "Hoover mods" that came from the factory in the type 4......that prevent oil from filling up the 3/4 side rocker box.

While Jake Raby also described that in its stock form at high rpm it can trap a lot of oil on its top side to whip around with the camshaft.....and cam benefit from a few extra drain slots in the cam valley.....overall its pretty effective. Most of the 411, 412 and 914 came with them.

You do not have to drive like a maniac to make this worthwhile. All of the type 4 vehciles handled flatter and cornered harder than a bus so virtually all got it.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php...dage+tray+

Here is one in the 914 classifieds. A little pricey for what it is....but it would be a pain to shape by hand. You need the four red seals shown above it.
Ray

[oprn]

[oprn]

Oh and what is a "Hoover mod"?

[raygreenwood]

[oprn]

Thanks for that Ray!

Interesting stuff though I do not recall having the rocker shaft issues mentioned with the type 1 engines. Maybe we didn't abuse them enough! Looks like good mods non the less.

No reply yet on my local add but not that many people into type 4s here.

[jsturtlebuggy]

This is what FAT Performance does for both type 1 and type 4 to control oil sloshing in off road engines.
FAT also does use the stock type 4 windage tray.

I found out for myself I prefer not to use a windage tray. That the adding of the steel plates welded to sump pickup works well to control oil in sump. From off racing in limited engine classes that the windage tray did allow for a fast enough oil return to the sump and caused starvation to bearings. This was engine that ran for hours at 4500 to 5500 RPM.
If the crank and rod were dipping into the oil like a Subaru, then I would be using a windage tray.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960

[raygreenwood]

On the type 4....for the street.....the windage tray makes total sense....especially when you look at the factory stock PCV "pull through" system . The factory windage tray does drain back a little slower than it should as Jake Raby noted. Some added slots in the cam valley fix this.

Also....the rods and cam in a type 4 ARE in the oil because of where it drains back from the PR tubes and the pull through PCV that originally came on the engine.

While I do not think the factory windage tray would be ideal for offroad.....most of the risk of sucking air can be fixed on most applications with a few slots and a tuna can sump extension.

The EMW center line baffel mod ia more of a circle travk requirement or road race where long sweepers and lateral G's push oil to one side of the case and keep it there for lomg periods. Both heads return oil at an almost identical rate.....but beimg on a long sweeper at high rpm can definitely put far too much oil one side without a centerline baffle.

The stock windage tray works pretty well...even better with a couple of mods....but that depends on your application. Ray
..

[Wreck]

I've just finished a build where I used the standard tray , I opened up the the tray in a few places under the cam , since I'm also going to be using autocraft style spray bars to help lubricate and cool the heads I put an extra drain in each head back to the sump , a trick I read somewhere that Kafer Cup guys in Europe used to do to help get the oil back quickly .

I made a simple one way valve to stop oil going to the outside head in a long sweeping bend .

[oprn]

[jsturtlebuggy]

Bill Fisher wrote about the modifications In his book (How to Hot Rod Volkswagen Engines) in 1970 that FAT did with the plates running front to rear.
No picture of it then. But he did show a couple of windage trays in type I engine case and his words were it was and unnecessary and that the use of windage tubes inside the holes where push rod tubes set. This was accomplished by cutting pieces out of push rod tubes and inserting into case and peening the edge over for push rod tube to hold into place. Using these our the windage pushrod tubes on a Type 1 enigne keeps the oil from sloshing back up into the cylinder heads.
I did this until the windage push rod tubes came on to the market.
I never had the problem with type 4 engines doing this with just the mod that I copied from FAT.

This is a page out of the book
In all the type 4 engines I have worked on, I never seen the oil level over the top side of the cam. It may have been close, but not close engine that I could see that the crank or rods were dipping into oil.
Not all type 4 engines came with a evacuation crankcase vent system in the different vehicle they came in. My early 914 engine did have but one vent off the filler piece on top of the engine. Yes I seen the later setup that have tubes in the head for the breathing system. Work on many that the hoses became brittle and broke apart. Many feet of woven hose replaced.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960

[raygreenwood]

Yes...true.....the windage tube "need" was pretty much negated by design.

I think the biggest benefit of the stock windage tray......was not so much to prevent slosh....it does that decently....but was also heavily relied upon to keep oil vapor down.....which was critical with the fuel injected type 4...because they vented case to direct manifold vacuum.

They put a lot of work into keeping oil under control in the type 4. Between the pull through PCV....which keeps the rocker boxes cleaner and most of the excessive oil out....and the cast in "Z" baffel in the case....and the oil chimney baffel.....along witj the windage tray it did vwry well. Ray

[Wreck]

the one way valves were simple to make , I used the ball bearing that's used in the oil filter bypass valve . the ball bearing is a loose fit in the threaded end of a brass 1/2 npt hose tail . simply braze in a copper washer to keep the ball captive .the ball can roll towards the washer (I elongated the washer ID) allowing oil to flow from the head . if oil gets pushed the other way it will force the ball towards the head stopping flow .

I'll pull them out for regular wear checks during normal oil change intervals . I don't want a couple of ball bearing loose in the sump .

[raygreenwood]

[oprn]

Yes I do recall Bill Fisher's push rod tube extensions. I hadn't thought about them when I was assembling the case. I wonder if that would work on the type 4?

Now, this stock crankcase vent system you are talking about Ray sounds more sophisticated than my engine has. It is an early Bus engine with factory dual carbs. All it has is the oil chimney filter thing and a fitting from it to the air cleaner. There is nothing on the rocker covers.

These one way valves then, Wreck, are on fitting on the rocker covers?

I had no intension of building any fancy extra crankcase venting system as this engine will be primarily a long distance highway cruiser with a bit more cam and carburation than stock and see only occasional quick blasts to 5000rpm. Long sweeping corners on the road and the odd sports car club parking lot slalom event will be in it's future though if all goes as planned.

[raygreenwood]

[Wreck]

Oprn . the valves are the sump/case fittings in the picture . For what you've described for your engine use I would not bother . The standard system will work well enough . If you use aftermarket pushrods and open up the tray under the cam it will increase the flow of oil back from the heads.

I went the extra mile because my engine will spin over 7000rpm and has extra oil going to the heads .


I'm trialling a Moroso PCV plumbed into the tail pipe . I'll have to put a vac gauge on it one day and see if it does pull vacuum .

[BIGMIKEY]

[raygreenwood]