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67rustavenger 
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Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9775
Location: Oregon
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 Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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Get a wire wheel and clean up the web between the intake and exhaust valves on #2 and #4 heads. Those are a little wet compared to #1 and #3
Maybe nothing there, but you want to be sure. A crack between the valves is usually not a bad thing. But if the crack goes to the spark plug hole, that's a whole other story.
BTW. Thanks for documenting this tear down and inspection for a novice!
It will help others in the future. You're doing a great job and asking allot of good questions.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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crankbait09
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Joined: October 10, 2016
Posts: 1306
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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| 67rustavenger wrote: |
Get a wire wheel and clean up the web between the intake and exhaust valves on #2 and #4 heads. Those are a little wet compared to #1 and #3
Maybe nothing there, but you want to be sure. A crack between the valves is usually not a bad thing. But if the crack goes to the spark plug hole, that's a whole other story.
BTW. Thanks for documenting this tear down and inspection for a novice!
It will help others in the future. You're doing a great job and asking allot of good questions. |
web? What is that? I'm assuming you mean to use a wire wheel to completely clean each valve area? Which would mean to also remove any build up I see? Wire wheels are very coarse. Plus, all the wire wheel "fragments" will break off and land who knows where. Am I over thinking that?
Should these heads be taken in to a machine shop for repair? I'm assuming a machine shop should install valves for me? I certainly don't have a spring tool.
any suggestions?
Then I feel I'm back to square one.
If the valves are seated properly. There are no cracks to be concerned with. It still doesn't tell me why my push rod was bent. Why I couldn't adjust the #4 exhaust valve. Is my problem leaning towards the rocker arm? I am struggling with the rocker geometry but still trying to grasp on to that process. Maybe that's where my problem lies?
I know I am asking a lot of elementary questions, and maybe I attempted a bigger project than I should have. Now that the engine is apart (that's always the easy part), I hope to soon put this back together. That's where my struggles will start. Not that they haven't already 
but I'm still pushing forward, very slowly, but do thank you for everyone's time in this. I can only hope that I helped others doing the same thing.
Me doing my brakes/cylinders/rear wheel leaks, etc, did a number for my confidence. That was intimidating for me. That helped me a lot. I have never done an engine before. It is still intimidating, but once it's back together and it actually runs!, I'll feel like I could do anything! This is a huge step for me. Again, thank you all for your help.
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24765
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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| crankbait09 wrote: |
web? What is that? I'm assuming you mean to use a wire wheel to completely clean each valve area? Which would mean to also remove any build up I see? Wire wheels are very coarse. Plus, all the wire wheel "fragments" will break off and land who knows where. Am I over thinking that? |
That narrow area between the valves, to check for cracks there.
Personally would just use a wire brush to clean that area. No need to work off more material than needed there.
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crankbait09
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016
Posts: 1306
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| crankbait09 wrote: |
web? What is that? I'm assuming you mean to use a wire wheel to completely clean each valve area? Which would mean to also remove any build up I see? Wire wheels are very coarse. Plus, all the wire wheel "fragments" will break off and land who knows where. Am I over thinking that? |
That narrow area between the valves, to check for cracks there.
Personally would just use a wire brush to clean that area. No need to work off more material than needed there. |
assume brake cleaner/soft brush?
should the tops of the pistons, and valves be cleaned also?
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24765
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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| crankbait09 wrote: |
assume brake cleaner/soft brush?
should the tops of the pistons, and valves be cleaned also? |
Never tried BC for that, just a wire hand brush of toothbrush size.
Cleaning completely will be an exercise in futility. Just going to get a certain amount of carbon built up when you run it next time. Better to get the carb jetting just right so the engine is not running too rich most of the time. That will reduce down carbon from building up in there.
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67rustavenger
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Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9775
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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Relax, you're doing a fine job and taking the time to get it right.
Things seem a little over whelming when you look at the amount of stuff that you have apart.
Hell! I have a complete engine torn apart on my garage floor right now due to a part malfunction (a head) and can easily sympathize with your situation. It's rather daunting to look at all those parts and say to yourself. "How the hell am I going to get that back together?"
The web between the valve that I speak of. Is the 10mm place between the valve heads in the combustion chamber. A wire wheel on a drill will not hurt the combustion chamber. Trust me many things have made it into and out of a running vw combustion chamber and the engine ran for thousands of thousands of miles afterward. You'll be fine.
If you are a little leery on the idea of the wire wheel, just use a stiff wire brush and clean the space between the valves in the combustion chamber.
Still uneasy? Use Scotch-Brite!
I'm not trying to scare you. I'm trying to guide you along the path of learning that we all have to go through to keep these 50yo + cars on the road.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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crankbait09
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016
Posts: 1306
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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no worries. I'm just trying to make sure I am doing everything correctly so I can get this put back together.
So as of right now, if I were to work inwards out. My first priority would be to remove the jugs, clean the surfaces of the case/jug, and prepare them for re-seating. yes? Then proceed to head cleaning?
would the jug removal answer anything about the bent push rod?
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67rustavenger
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Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9775
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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| crankbait09 wrote: |
no worries. I'm just trying to make sure I am doing everything correctly so I can get this put back together.
So as of right now, if I were to work inwards out. My first priority would be to remove the jugs, clean the surfaces of the case/jug, and prepare them for re-seating. yes? Then proceed to head cleaning?
would the jug removal answer anything about the bent push rod? |
No!
You're just getting the sealing surface of the cylinder base clean to reseal it, so it no longer leaks oil.
Try not to pull the pistons out of the cylinders if you can avoid it. I did on one cylinder and am not happy about it.  But it's recoverable.
Clean the bases up and apply/reapply a RTV that's compatible with heat and oil. Seat the cylinder to the case and call it a day.
Good Luck.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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crankbait09
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016
Posts: 1306
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| crankbait09 wrote: |
no worries. I'm just trying to make sure I am doing everything correctly so I can get this put back together.
So as of right now, if I were to work inwards out. My first priority would be to remove the jugs, clean the surfaces of the case/jug, and prepare them for re-seating. yes? Then proceed to head cleaning?
would the jug removal answer anything about the bent push rod? |
No!
You're just getting the sealing surface of the cylinder base clean to reseal it, so it no longer leaks oil.
Try not to pull the pistons out of the cylinders if you can avoid it. I did on one cylinder and am not happy about it. But it's recoverable.
Clean the bases up and apply/reapply a RTV that's compatible with heat and oil. Seat the cylinder to the case and call it a day.
Good Luck. |
ok, so how much "room" do I have to move that cylinder away from the case before pistons fall out? Obviously doing this this way, I won't be able to use the paper gasket along with the RTV sealant. And cleaning off the existing residue will be rather difficult due to the lack of room to move.
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24765
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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| 67rustavenger wrote: |
Clean the bases up and apply/reapply a RTV that's compatible with heat and oil. Seat the cylinder to the case and call it a day.
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Just FYI do not use a lot of RTV to seal there. If you use too much it could get into the oil sump, get sucked up by the oil pump and clog up a bearing passage. Installing a Maxi 2 oil filter/pump would most likely keep that from happening.
Best to apply sealant when installing the heads back on so the cylinders are clamped to the case before sealant sets up.
Since you are that far in. You could remove the pistons/cylinders together and then each connecting rod, so you can replace the connecting rod bearings. That would allow you to inspect how bad the bearings and crankshaft journals are and if the latter is fine, have new bearings to improve oil pressure if the old ones are a bit worn. Just have to mark and make sure each P&C and rod go back in same positions when doing that.
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crankbait09
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Joined: October 10, 2016
Posts: 1306
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
Clean the bases up and apply/reapply a RTV that's compatible with heat and oil. Seat the cylinder to the case and call it a day.
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Just FYI do not use a lot of RTV to seal there. If you use too much it could get into the oil sump, get sucked up by the oil pump and clog up a bearing passage. Installing a Maxi 2 oil filter/pump would most likely keep that from happening.
Best to apply sealant when installing the heads back on so the cylinders are clamped to the case before sealant sets up.
Since you are that far in. You could remove the pistons/cylinders together and then each connecting rod, so you can replace the connecting rod bearings. That would allow you to inspect how bad the bearings and crankshaft journals are and if the latter is fine, have new bearings to improve oil pressure if the old ones are a bit worn. Just have to mark and make sure each P&C and rod go back in same positions when doing that. |
ok, that makes sense to install head immediately after to ensure proper sealing.
Back a step, I will clean the heads/valve areas and see what I find.
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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| crankbait09 wrote: |
ok, so how much "room" do I have to move that cylinder away from the case before pistons fall out? Obviously doing this this way, I won't be able to use the paper gasket along with the RTV sealant. And cleaning off the existing residue will be rather difficult due to the lack of room to move. |
When you see all of the connecting rod wrist pin bore in the piston, that is far enough.
If you do remove the wrist pin, you can install new paper gaskets. Personally like to finger paint the gasket with RTV.
Whichever way you go, do now retorque all the case fasteners in same sequence and amounts as if you were building up the engine. You will be surprised how loose they are.
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crankbait09
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Joined: October 10, 2016
Posts: 1306
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| crankbait09 wrote: |
ok, so how much "room" do I have to move that cylinder away from the case before pistons fall out? Obviously doing this this way, I won't be able to use the paper gasket along with the RTV sealant. And cleaning off the existing residue will be rather difficult due to the lack of room to move. |
When you see all of the connecting rod wrist pin bore in the piston, that is far enough.
If you do remove the wrist pin, you can install new paper gaskets. Personally like to finger paint the gasket with RTV.
Whichever way you go, do now retorque all the case fasteners in same sequence and amounts as if you were building up the engine. You will be surprised how loose they are. |
I may kick myself in the ass for not removing pistons/cylinders, etc. but for now, I'd like to avoid that.
I will re-torque every nut/bolt I find. That's a good idea, didn't think of that.
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Sharp64
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Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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Granted, good to find the bent pushrod, but out of curiosity how much oil were you leaking? You’ve removed the engine and now have the head off. Now you’re being told to take the pistons and cylinders out to replace the rod bearings, new wrist pins etc. New oil pump, rebuilt heads. You’re being lead down the rabbit hole my friend.
In before you’ve got the case split for a total rebuild. 🙄
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1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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crankbait09
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Joined: October 10, 2016
Posts: 1306
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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which is why I was hoping for a number of suggestions on what to do. In my mind, I thought, I only had an oil leak, this should be easy. I knew I had a #4 valve that couldn't be adjusted, which led me to all this. So I kinda get all that. While searching for the #4 issue, that's when I ran in to the bent rod. That blew my mind. Never knew I had an issue. And that was in the cylinder I didn't know I had a problem in.
As for the oil. I wasn't leaking a drop here, and a drop there. There was a puddle under my car in the garage, as well as wherever I drove it. It certainly slowed down when the engine was cold. After I turned the car off, I looked under, and the whole bottom part of the oil sump was dripping oil, as well as from the gap in between the transmission/engine. The oil was making a mess of everything. I wasn't going through a quart of oil or anything like that. But it was more than a drop here and there.
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Sharp64
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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Cool. Sounds like it definitely needed some checking. Hopefully it doesn’t go much deeper.
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1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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crankbait09
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Joined: October 10, 2016
Posts: 1306
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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I am not addressing this yet, but just got to thinking.
Now that my heater boxes are off, I'd like to look them over before re-installing. What things should I look for to indicate that they need replaced?
I know they need painted, but I don't think I'm going to worry about that. Especially since you can't see them.
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24765
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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They need to be replaced if they leak exhaust inside the tin skins. Otherwise they should be repaired, because they are superior to any HE made today.
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crankbait09
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Joined: October 10, 2016
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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It looks like the only way I can remove the crank shaft pulley tin, is by removing the crank shaft pulley.
If I do that, does that mess with the crank shaft position? Then again, I know that I will have to check the play in the crank shaft when I remove the flywheel, to get to the main seal.
Are there any caution flags I would need to take note of when removing this pulley?
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Eric&Barb
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: My first engine removal........questions, and lessons learned |
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| crankbait09 wrote: |
It looks like the only way I can remove the crank shaft pulley tin, is by removing the crank shaft pulley.
If I do that, does that mess with the crank shaft position? Then again, I know that I will have to check the play in the crank shaft when I remove the flywheel, to get to the main seal.
Are there any caution flags I would need to take note of when removing this pulley? |
Crank pulley & Crankshaft has one slot & woodruff key to keep all in proper position on the crankshaft. So pulley can only go on only one way.
Hopefully you have a pulley puller made to grasp the pulley at the center hub. Using a puller at the outer edge of the pulley is a good way to bend it up. After you have the pulley removed, you can sand its ID to fit the crankshaft with hand pressure fit. Then use a grease to lube up the inner of the pulley to help keep it from rusting to the crankshaft.
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