moisture related loss of power and rough running

[Captjon1959]

On my latest camping trip my 1.9 L 1984 ran fine for 200 miles. After two days in the rain it still ran fine until I drove it in the rain. It then began to cut out (like the vanagon syndrome) and eventually lost so much power that I had to floor it and pump the gas to go 15 miles per hour up hills. It continued to do this for much of my 200 mile trip home - not very relaxing. Towards the end of the trip it ran much better, but would hesitate every now and then just to keep my anxiety levels nice and high.

Here's what I've aready done to the van last year:
AFM capacitor fix (helped)
new fuel pump and filter
new fuel rails and lines
refurbished injectors
new spark plugs and wires
new distributer cap and rotor
regrounded engine grounds
new idle control unit
new vacuum lines
new oxy sensor

The problem seems to start if I drive in the rain making me think it is electrical. If I stop and restart it doesn't improve. After is sits dry for a day it is back to normal. I can hear the fuel pump (it is a noisy Chinese unit) cut out in sync with the engine loosing power. Sometimes, when I pump the gas it sounds like there might be some muffled back fire. I haven't replaced the fuel pump relay or had the ECU (computer) tested. In the '84 it sits behind the driver's side rear wheel behind the the tail lights. I also haven't replaced the coil. Any ideas. I was falling out of love with my van for 200 miles and don't want to part with it. I'm no mechanic but I do all the work myself thanks to you guys and the posts I can look up and I need some suggestions. Any other information that would be helpful to know? Thanks for any suggestions.
_________________
1984 Westfalia Wolfsburg Edition
Former 1.9 L now Bostig Ford Zetec

[pioneer1]

Hi: You could have a look inside the distributor cap when it happens to check for moisture,then spray the spark plug wires with WD40 or a similar water displacement product .If that doesn't help check the fuel for water that has entered the gas tank from the road spray . A poorly sealed gas tank will suck in the mist through the expansion tanks,filler neck or grommets.
_________________
"Always waiting for tomorrow ruined everything"

'85 Porsche 911 Targa

'76 Westfalia project

[Zentaka]

I have a very similar problem which I've been wrestling with for many moons now. I heard something about a hall effect sender or something close to that. Maybe search that on the forums. I haven't been able to check it out myself thus far but it seems to be in line with the sorts of problems I'm experiencing.

Hope it helps,


-Zen

[danagain]

Since you said that it was happening in the rain... by any chance are you missing your Oxygen Sensor shield?

A couple of years ago, while driving on the freeway in the pouring rain on New Year's eve, I would begin to lose power until the engine would completely stall out. I would wait a minute or so and then the engine would start right back up. I could drive a short distance when the symptoms would appear all over again. It took us over 2 hours to drive 30 miles.

I finally had it towed home.
The next day with no rain, I had no problems...

I tried checking all kinds of things, but nothing proved definitive... until, I discovered that other Vangonites have had the same symptoms... the common denominator is a missing Oxygen Sensor shield in the rain.

Apparently in the heavy rain the Oxygen Sensor gets wet and the sensor sends the wrong message to the computer and then it starves the engine. It shuts down (i.e. stalls). When you turn it off, the computer resets and then you can startup the engine and make it a little while until it happens all over again (like "Vanagon Syndrome"). The VW engineers developed that shield for a good reason.

So, check for the Oxygen Sensor shield - the shield clips onto the Oxygen Sensor which is screwed into the Catalytic Converter (next to the muffler).

Here is a blurry picture of one of mine:

Hope this helps!
_________________
williamtaylor33 said: "You'll have more stories to tell if you drive the vanagon..."

'86 Wolfsburg Weekender
'90 Vanagon GL - automatic

[Ahwahnee]

On my 84 the O2 sensor is in the exhaust pipe ahead of the cat. It does not have a shield (don't know if it ever did) but that area is so stinkin' hot it's hard to imagine it could get (& stay) wet. Still, pays to check everything.

[chimivee]

If it's a universal splice-in O2 sensor, make sure the connection is water tight. My last van would go wonky when the connection got wet. Sealed it up and it was all better.
_________________
-James
86 Syncro Westy, etc

[randywebb]

Is that shield for the sensor on your '86 or on your 1990?

My 1986 does not have a shield.

Also, do you know of a part number?
_________________
1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans.

[John Sullivan]

I had a rain related problem like that. I tried a bunch, like you indicate. What finally appears to have corrected it was the faston lugs at the fuel pump. They were older and when it was raining they would lose contact sometimes. Seems your fuel pump tends to drop as well. I cut a stripped and put tight new push-on lugs and the problem went away. Feel how loose yours are.

[Captjon1959]

Thank you for the suggestions. I will check these things out and report back on any impacts.
_________________
1984 Westfalia Wolfsburg Edition
Former 1.9 L now Bostig Ford Zetec

[paulcolorado21]

Hey All,

I am running into the same problem with the rain. I had this happen last winter with a subaru engine and then I actually left to the desert and baja all winter so I just avoided the rain. Driving back home I hit rain in Utah and it worked fine. Then in Colorado only 30 minutes from my home I had a loss of power right in the middle of a tunnel and was stopped with no shoulder (very scary). I got the car to start back up and was able to high rev it 15 mph to the exit. I then was adding HEET to the gas and taking my time exit by exit until I got home. I let everything dry out and took it for a test drive and had minor but similar symptoms on the test drive.

I am really thinking mine is related to the gas tank seal and the connection with the fuel filler tube. I have two other pieces of evidence... when I have the tank completely full I can smell gas inside the van until I drive about 50 miles and the second is when I was in mexico sometimes they would fill the tank as much as they possibly could and there would be some gas leaking out around the filler.

When I examine the filler tube it looks rusty and old but there arent any signs of a hole or leak. The expansion tanks are another thing I have seen on here as something to look at. One of the tanks is patched but it seems to be water tight.

Am I right to think resealing the gas tank could be my solution?


Paul

[ALIKA T3]

Gas tank reseal, new hoses to the evap tanks, new roll over valve grommets. The whole thing. It's prolly old AF anyway. Do not throw the old filler tube grommet, new ones tend to break withing a couple weeks, in this case the old filler grommet will save your life, it can be done tank in place. They rarely go bad, original that is.
_________________
Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget

[DuncanS]

Expansion tank rollover gaskets. They need changing every 5 years or so now as the quality is not up to the OG.

Happened to me with exactly the same symptoms.

Duncan

[paulcolorado21]

Just for an update and a continuation of similar fuel issues...

I bought the kit for the expansion tank reseal and the old ones were completely destroyed and just resting inside the hole with no seal. I sealed both of the expansion tanks and everything has been running great. Then I recently was away for about 3 or 4 weeks and didnt drive the vehicle.

Today I drove about 15 miles no problem and then going up a hill the engine stalled out while trying to accelerate. I had this happen multiple times on my last 15 miles of the drive where the engine would cut out either when accelerating or at a stop.

I have the T gauge after the fuel filter and it is reading about 16psi at IDLE, isnt it supposed to be around 28??!!

This one doesnt seem water related but more just bad fuel delivery pressure. I also have a battery that I think needs replacing that registers on my scan gauge usually between 11.8-12.2V while driving. Could this play a part as well?

Any advice and best places to start would be much appreciated!

[0to60in6min]

How about the Fuel Pressure Regulator?

[Californio]

The battery level is way low, something's wrong. Check voltage at the alternator with the engine running and everything off, should be at least 13.5 and better more like 14.5.

It's unlikely this could be your running problem though if the voltage drops way down, it might be telling the ECU to shut down. My Tiico does this under something like 10.5 volts. Not the same system but it still might be relevant. Anybody know the voltage under which a Vanagon ECU won't operate?

I'd also check or really, just replace the ignition coil. I've found that a lot of moisture-related running problems involve the high-tension part of the ignition system. Coil, wires, cap, rotor, plugs.

Regardless, the charging system doesn't seem to be working right. That is not a battery problem per se, the alternator should be putting out way more than 12.2 volts.
_________________
1987 Syncro Westy/2.0L Tiico

[connorsvw2]

Other possibility is that your tank is now full of sand and grit from driving in the rain without those grommets, and your pump is struggling to suck fuel from the tank. Clue should be a very noisy pump, especially when it's hot outside, as this will worsen cavitation.
_________________
'85 Westy Wolfsburg camper/2002 2.5 Subaru since 2003.
'85 GTI 1.8L 1-owner 8v-gave up on 9A 2.0L 16v transplant. Keeping her stock!
'99 Passat 1.8T Variant-AKA "The Money Pit". Still limping along...
'09 Subaru Outback XT 5-speed, 245 hp rocket (wife's car)

[paulcolorado21]

So this morning I went out and started it up with no problem and the fuel pressure while Idling was in the high 20's like mainly 28psi... after about 10 minutes the engine cut out. I started it up again and it cut out after about 5 minutes and then again after about 3 minutes.

I'm not sure what to make of the pressure getting to this more optimal number after sitting for the night about 14 hours but then why it is still cutting out..

[DuncanS]

You may have a vent problem where the vacuum in the tank has a slow leak so it returns to atmosphere over night, but the leak isn't fast enough to keep up with the draw. Try running with the gas cap off and see what happens.

Gunk in the tank. Is your tank full? When the engine stops, does the fuel pressure drop to zero as well? Testing with both the fuel supply and return going into a gallon jug on the ground would bypass the tank. Thus if it runs fine this way, then the problem is in the tank.

After fixing the expansion tank valves and lines, did you add dry gas?

When you say it runs, is the car on the road or just idling in the driveway? Driving can loosen tank grunk and have it get sucked into the feed line.

Duncan

[paulcolorado21]

You may have a vent problem where the vacuum in the tank has a slow leak so it returns to atmosphere over night, but the leak isn't fast enough to keep up with the draw. Try running with the gas cap off and see what happens.

Gunk in the tank. Is your tank full? When the engine stops, does the fuel pressure drop to zero as well? Testing with both the fuel supply and return going into a gallon jug on the ground would bypass the tank. Thus if it runs fine this way, then the problem is in the tank.

After fixing the expansion tank valves and lines, did you add dry gas?

When you say it runs, is the car on the road or just idling in the driveway? Driving can loosen tank grunk and have it get sucked into the feed line.

So here is an update on the electrical system...

I measured the alternator and it is kicking out 14.4V and the battery is also kicking out 14.4V, not sure why the scan gauge only says that 11.8-12.4 ish range.

I watched the fuel pressure stay consistent around 25 PSI now, it was 28 this morning. I starred at it while the van was idling in the parking lot and when it finally cut out it didn't have a drop in fuel pressure prior to the cut out. It just sounds like somoene turned off the ignition. The pressure then stayed around 19PSI after the engine was off which I think from my knowledge that all sounds normal.

When the engine does cut out it doesnt seem to want to start right back up everytime. I will prime the pump with the ignition and sometimes that works, other times if I wait about 5-10 minutes it starts right up. Just wanted to add that in case that is important information.

I had a backup COIL so I switched that piece in and there didnt seem to be any difference with anything.

Is there an idling sensor or some kind of sensor that could be not working correctly?

I havent done anything with the gas tank to this point, mainly just out of the pain in the ass to do so. I have about 1/4 of a tank of gas in there at the moment. I would love to go fill it up and see if that changes anything but I'm nervous I may need to inspect the tank soon which it would be nice to have it low when doing so.

What would you guys try next?

I also just want to reiterate my thanks and gratefulness for everybody's help on this forum... it is really cool to have this community

[paulcolorado21]

Just tried taking off the gas cap and letting it run and it still cut out after about 8 minutes