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KEATSKI
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Joined: October 01, 2008
Posts: 19
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 Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:46 pm Post subject: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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| Hello, looking for anybody that has installed the 2 Barrel "Holley Sniper" EFI unit on their engine. Along with MSD CD box and Distributor. I could use a little info and help with certain phases of installation, especially the set up of ignition. Thanks. |
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candyflame73
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2005
Posts: 440
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:30 am Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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| I'm curious as well. If you find out any information, pass it on. Seems like a proper bit of kit. |
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lelef
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Joined: July 07, 2013
Posts: 215
Location: France
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:03 am Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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Two 100lb/hr Injectors seems too big to me .
every injector has a range ,more it is big more is the minimum fuel it can spray so at idle should be impossible to not flood the engine
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DeathBySnuSnu
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Joined: August 25, 2012
Posts: 1241
Location: MS
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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I have absolutely ZERO hands on experience with the Sniper or any other self learning kit.
But I did research and troll the groups hunting hands on and air cooled vw experience. I did find several examples and none were ideal.
The kits were geared more towards a larger displacement water cooled engine. Being so....a lot of basic engine characteristics are assumed to be the same. Which a lot are not ideal for a vw.
Examples.
The injectors are too big for a small engine.
The old vw engine likes being richer than ideal.....say mid 13's and the self learner is set to stoichiometric 14.7
The warm up enrichment dont match vw.
The cold start enrichment dont match vw.
The temperature input dont match vw. Ie...wrong type of sensor and a whole different scale range.
I read about a guy that got one to run quite well....but never got the enrichment to work correctly. Think carbs with no choke....but pumping the gas pedal does nothing on fuel injection. Dude gave up and put carbs back on as it was un-crankable in winter.
The advertising on the sniper reads that it comes with PC tuning software. You may very well be able to program around these problems. But that leads you to why get a self learner if you are going to have to manually program it yourself.
Megasquirt can be auto tuned. It is actually considered an excellent starting point for you to modify your specific needs into.
In the end you are probably better of with a claudes buggies kit or a megasquirt kit from the dub shop.
If you want to learn the tech and are handy.....you can piece part your own kit and megasquirt. In the end it is what I did and all for less than the cost of one cb throttle body (I made a lot of my own parts).
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DerrickfromNC1
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2008
Posts: 1422
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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Have you checked out:
http://rodneyadamsdesigns.com/
He has a lot of experience with both Fueltech and Holly Sniper for our VW engines. |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23945
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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| many years ago i put a holly tb system on a camarow for a guy. he could not drive the car with carb on it ,( big cam, extra big ported heads) the holly tb was perfect and eazy to inastall, he loves it. |
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john7
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2003
Posts: 1562
Location: Garden grove ca
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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i have installed them on a 2276 engine.
throttle body had to go back to holley 3 times before it was good
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Sailor Jerry
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2008
Posts: 50
Location: jacksonville
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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| DeathBySnuSnu wrote: |
I have absolutely ZERO hands on experience with the Sniper or any other self learning kit.
But I did research and troll the groups hunting hands on and air cooled vw experience. I did find several examples and none were ideal.
The kits were geared more towards a larger displacement water cooled engine. Being so....a lot of basic engine characteristics are assumed to be the same. Which a lot are not ideal for a vw.
Examples.
The injectors are too big for a small engine.
The old vw engine likes being richer than ideal.....say mid 13's and the self learner is set to stoichiometric 14.7
The warm up enrichment dont match vw.
The cold start enrichment dont match vw.
The temperature input dont match vw. Ie...wrong type of sensor and a whole different scale range.
I read about a guy that got one to run quite well....but never got the enrichment to work correctly. Think carbs with no choke....but pumping the gas pedal does nothing on fuel injection. Dude gave up and put carbs back on as it was un-crankable in winter.
The advertising on the sniper reads that it comes with PC tuning software. You may very well be able to program around these problems. But that leads you to why get a self learner if you are going to have to manually program it yourself.
Megasquirt can be auto tuned. It is actually considered an excellent starting point for you to modify your specific needs into.
In the end you are probably better of with a claudes buggies kit or a megasquirt kit from the dub shop.
If you want to learn the tech and are handy.....you can piece part your own kit and megasquirt. In the end it is what I did and all for less than the cost of one cb throttle body (I made a lot of my own parts). |
I just stumbled on this because I am considering putting one on my new 912 engine and I wanted to correct some of this info.
I currently have 3 holley systems:
1. Holley terminator on a blown sbc
2. Holley sniper on a sbc
3. Holley sniper on a vw aba 2.0 which is installed in my 68 beetle.
As far as I can tell, the sniper systems use a very similar software as the terminator in regards to the self tuning (or map smoothing). The 2300 throttle body that I have in my beetle is geared for smaller displacement engines and supports up to 350hp NA (around 200-220 with boost). Changing your desired fuel ratios is simple (you can choose your idle, cruising and WOT ratios) and the system learns quite quickly. You have several enrichment options as well which include temperature and acceleration enrichment. As far as "matching vw", there is no such thing. You can manually set and adjust your enrichment to your desired settings with the hand held. You can set your cold start prime which is the same thing as a choke and the system has idle air control which means you can have adjustable idle based on engine temp (you can set your idle to whatever temperature input you want). The only issue you might have would be the temperature sensor as you would need to find a way to use a gm temp sensor for your oil temps. I would also only use the system on a blow through as opposed to a draw through as the system comes stock with a 2 bar map sensor and can automatically adjust your maps to compensate.
As far as Holley vs Fuel tech, I have only used Holley and I will continue to do so just based on their customer service. They have assisted me with numerous issues I had (90% were my own fault) due to not using stock drivetrains etc. They have also serviced products that were outside the warranty period free of charge. I can try to answer any other questions anyone might have |
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Ohio Tom
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Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1661
Location: Marshallville Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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For N/A applications, dual carbs will always out perform any plenum intake you cam mount a single carb onto..
for turbo applications, the big issues is the manifolds used are 90deg bends.
The fuel injector in the throttle body sprays against the bottom of the 90deg bend and loads up the manifold with raw fuel. Rev it up and she spits black smoke and floods out after letting idle for a few seconds.
Now, if someone made a better manifold, then I might be persuaded to try a Sniper on my cars.. |
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Sailor Jerry
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Joined: May 06, 2008
Posts: 50
Location: jacksonville
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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| Ohio Tom wrote: |
For N/A applications, dual carbs will always out perform any plenum intake you cam mount a single carb onto..
for turbo applications, the big issues is the manifolds used are 90deg bends.
The fuel injector in the throttle body sprays against the bottom of the 90deg bend and loads up the manifold with raw fuel. Rev it up and she spits black smoke and floods out after letting idle for a few seconds.
Now, if someone made a better manifold, then I might be persuaded to try a Sniper on my cars.. |
I disagree, i think it depends on the application. Fuel atomization is far superior with modern fuel injection and longer intake runners (well designed of course) gives you a more optimal torque range for street driving.
The fuel injectors don't spray against the bottom of the 90 degree bend. The holley unit uses "injector rings" which is basically a ring which is the diameter of each individual throttle body. The ring has small holes all the way around it which helps atomize and disperse the fuel evenly inside the throttle body. The fuel is actually sprayed into the throttle body and not downward. And yes, I made my own manifold for my aba swap, Id most likely do the same for my aircooled if I decide to go that route. |
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lostinbaja
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Joined: December 19, 2004
Posts: 4036
Location: Frankfort, Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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Holley has a very good Tech Line, List your questions and give them a call.
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 27754
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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| Ohio Tom wrote: |
For N/A applications, dual carbs will always out perform any plenum intake you cam mount a single carb onto..
for turbo applications, the big issues is the manifolds used are 90deg bends.
The fuel injector in the throttle body sprays against the bottom of the 90deg bend and loads up the manifold with raw fuel. Rev it up and she spits black smoke and floods out after letting idle for a few seconds.
Now, if someone made a better manifold, then I might be persuaded to try a Sniper on my cars.. |
Yep.
the manifold, WET FLOW. Someday I plan to re-visit the "tee" junction, with a WET flow bench.
And I expect zero assistance from anybody on that subject.
It's like a black hole, this subject.
As soon as you realize what it is, you turn back, or, keep headed into it.... they never come back. But I've been staring at it for 15 years, why the heck not. |
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Alstrup
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Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7950
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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It can work, but not better than a center mount dual carb apart from the possibility of a better warm up period. Manifold heat and manifold sizing in relation to the engine size is paramount.
IMHO it is not worth it unless one is trying to prove a point and/or don´t know how to jet a carburettor and maintain it.
On a V6 or V8 it is a totally different matter. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23477
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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| modok wrote: |
| Ohio Tom wrote: |
For N/A applications, dual carbs will always out perform any plenum intake you cam mount a single carb onto..
for turbo applications, the big issues is the manifolds used are 90deg bends.
The fuel injector in the throttle body sprays against the bottom of the 90deg bend and loads up the manifold with raw fuel. Rev it up and she spits black smoke and floods out after letting idle for a few seconds.
Now, if someone made a better manifold, then I might be persuaded to try a Sniper on my cars.. |
Yep.
the manifold, WET FLOW. Someday I plan to re-visit the "tee" junction, with a WET flow bench.
And I expect zero assistance from anybody on that subject.
It's like a black hole, this subject.
As soon as you realize what it is, you turn back, or, keep headed into it.... they never come back. But I've been staring at it for 15 years, why the heck not. |
Its really not that "black of a hole. Its just that most people do not think any further than on or off....or black and white...and skip a lot of details so they cant wrap their head around it.
As far as INITIAL fuel atomization...with an injector that is center mounted...versus a carb venturi....the injector ALWAYS LOSES.
Injectors do not "atomize" (a really poor term) fuel at all. They create micro-droplets. They are still visible. You can see the spray no matter how well the injector breaks it up.
The venturi however....actually creates a much higher level of fuel vaporization. Its nearly invisible teh droplets are so fine. Its more of a vapor.
But....carbs cannot keep that fuel SUSPENDED in that state unless the runner length is very short.
The fuel injector.....can CREATE better atomization....but it has to have high velocity intake air smacking into that spray of micro-droplets. This is why they do not do as well...atomization wise...when placed up in teh very top of the manifold.
The Holley injector rings sound interesting...especially if they create a slight restriction....which acts as a venturi as well for better atomization to go with the distribution. Ray |
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Ohio Tom
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Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1661
Location: Marshallville Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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My comments above are based on folks I know who are/have tried different "4bbl replacment" type FI systems.
In each case, they all have the same issue that the manufacture cannot seem to get around;
Loading up at idle.
Way worse than a 4bbl carb does.
The last person I was talking to who was working on it said they could see the fuel accumulating in the bottom of the 90deg bend. When they rev it up, it loads up so bad it foul plugs.
If they get the motor past the loading up, it works great. In each case, they had to remove the system...
I have other ideas about how to make it work, but I certainly won't be sharing them here. |
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Alstrup
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Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7950
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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| Ohio Tom wrote: |
I have other ideas about how to make it work, but I certainly won't be sharing them here. |
I know what you think,,,,, I think 
Question is, is it really woth it over something proper sized, and where the jets sits where they are supposed to sit on a boxer (?) |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23477
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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| Ohio Tom wrote: |
My comments above are based on folks I know who are/have tried different "4bbl replacment" type FI systems.
In each case, they all have the same issue that the manufacture cannot seem to get around;
Loading up at idle.
Way worse than a 4bbl carb does.
The last person I was talking to who was working on it said they could see the fuel accumulating in the bottom of the 90deg bend. When they rev it up, it loads up so bad it foul plugs.
If they get the motor past the loading up, it works great. In each case, they had to remove the system...
I have other ideas about how to make it work, but I certainly won't be sharing them here. |
Yes!...and with that 90* bend....a piece of that effect is flat out inertial force.
As those "non atomized" fuel injected droplets both bounce off the bottom of the manifold surface/floor under the TB and injector...the airflow rebound is causing turbulence and also trying to make a 90* bend at high speed....the mass of the droplets cannot make that rapid turn and they fall out of the center of the air stream and contact the manifold. Once they wet onto it...it takes about 5X the airflow to suck that wet fuel off the manifold wall.
Since the injector is always spraying....the fuel is always being replaced on the manifold wall/floor. Once its wet it pretty much stays wet....unless running at high enough rpms.
Lots of fuel injection systems have this same problem even in port injection....in the ports...at lower rpms. There are a handful of ways to prevent this with various injector aims and turbulence methods. Ray |
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Alstrup
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Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7950
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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| That´s EXACTLY why you would want the injectors very close to the intake valves and not 2 feet away, on top of a giant plenum. |
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Onceler
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Joined: May 28, 2010
Posts: 1658
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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Don’t these systems spray above the venturi? If so, wouldn’t atomization be the same as a carb? At least that’s the way my old S10 was, remove the air cleaner and 2 giant injectors sitting right on top
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23477
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Holley Sniper Fuel Injection |
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| Onceler wrote: |
| Don’t these systems spray above the venturi? If so, wouldn’t atomization be the same as a carb? At least that’s the way my old S10 was, remove the air cleaner and 2 giant injectors sitting right on top |
Yes.....if there IS venturi in the TB unit.....yes....they would get carb level atomization....but then would still have the same issues (which port injection does not have)....of fuel stratification on long runners. It will run just like a carbed vehicle. An electronic carburetor.....
Ray |
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