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schadenfreude
Banned
Joined: August 25, 2011
Posts: 1535
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 Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:58 pm Post subject: oil relief spring |
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i'm down to the wire....
I have all my parts, to finish my bug and motor
but i refuse to use those over pressure oil relief springs.
mine in 43 years old and i want a new stock spring.
nobody sells it, (single relief case) 100% stock and i want stock pressure.
very hard to find that.
i went to 20 online stores.
and have bought from most. already.
stock motor 68 T1, 1600 new jugs, stock cam, stock carb and stock sp heads with all new sst valves with spec. hard stems.
thanks for any tips or leads.
happy holidays. too. |
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cferry7
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Joined: February 17, 2011
Posts: 400
Location: S.E. U.S.A
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Gene Berg sells a Oil Pressure Relief Kit.
You may want to find out what this kit actually contains ?
GeneBerg.com
link :
http://www.geneberg.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_509&products_id=1912
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1st : ' 71 Super , 1641 cc , ~ Stock - a keeper !
2nd: ' 70 Standard , Totaled 7-14-01 , R.I.P. |
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schadenfreude
Banned
Joined: August 25, 2011
Posts: 1535
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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yes , and thanks, Gene was my first stop, grin.
Racing , high pressure, heavy duty,etc.
i keep orderg these spring kits , get this real long, and/or thick spring.
my machinist has a bucket full of vw springs, all that look like mine but rusty and not one looks like these new,, massive racing springs....
i may try getting a VW Brazil spring for the importers.,oops no good for single relief.
DATA !
there are 6 diffr. factory springs.
my old unloaded length is 77mm (SRCase) (UNKNOW SPRING sorry, i muffed this the real spring is 62mm (unloaded) i will test it tomorrow.
the spec. for the spring,loaded at 7lbs is 43.2mm
(tried to measure mine loaded and spring shot across room)?
but doing this, the test passed !
17mm deepwall socket, 5 washers stacked in side for 43mm
spring in hole of socket; press socket and spring against scale
8 Pounds (amazing 43years old and still good , fine engineering.
many (most)of the springs sold in stores are way too long. and hard.
MAM store lists a spring , with no (racing ,etc words) we will see
after i get it and i test it.
make sure the seat ,in the block is NOT damaged where this valve fits.
make sure the cold starting pressures are not too high.
$35?
http://www.geneberg.com/article.php?ArticleID=243
using googles advanced site search (SITE:) no springs sold at Genes.
not today.
ok the data on my Johnny's speed and chrome,(nos) jsc10 53225
unloaded length 84mm (longer than stock?)
loaded pressure 43mm is 10lbs
i post this for others, to figure out what they have. see lots of posts asking, and no answers..... my contrib.
Last edited by schadenfreude on Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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1970t1vert
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Joined: November 24, 2005
Posts: 245
Location: Vernon, NJ
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I bought an engine hardware kit just for the proper oil relief springs. |
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1970t1vert
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Joined: November 24, 2005
Posts: 245
Location: Vernon, NJ
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Look in the classified ads under " case hardware kit" |
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glutamodo 
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26524
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Those case hardware kits have the dual port springs, not the SP one he wants. Did you notice all the different specs on that chart he posted?
Which brings me to this....
| schadenfreude wrote: |
but doing this, the test passed !
17mm deepwall socket, 5 washers stacked in side for 43mm
spring in hole of socket; press socket and spring against scale
8 Pounds (amazing 43years old and still good , fine engineering.
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This is exactly what I was thinking about posting when I first saw this thread... had you tested your old spring under pressure and how did it do? Since it passes, I would just use it!
BUT, I didn't post that thought - because I remembered there is some confusion as to the specs given on the SP engines. That chart posted above, which appears to be a copy of the file I would have posted from my own FTP files, is from the (Baywindow Bus) Green Bentley, which is why it shows the type IV engine springs as well. And that would have meant the B5-series 1600 block. And that's where the confusion comes in... if you look in the 66-69 Light Blue Bentley, or in the previous similar 66-68 manual that was written by the Deluis Klasing & Co, and also in the 1200 Big Blue Bentley, you'll find an entirely different specification for that spring. So I wasn't sure which one would apply to you. Looks like the chart from the Green Bentley was it. This is what those older books say - 62-64mm unloaded and 23.6mm with 7.75kg of pressure:
So again, it sounds like you had the one shown in the Bus 1600SP book.
I never researched this any deeper than just noting that disparity in specifications between those two sources though. So I thought I'd go and look up part numbers in the August 1971 type 1 Parts manual that you can find on VW's Germany website. ( http://www.vw-classicparts.de/et_katalog1970/index.html - note: this link may not work much longer as they now have another, slower to use, interface to browse this manual on their website, unfortunately. ) But this parts book only shows Type One parts and as far as the relief valve spring goes, never mentions the H5 USA series. Although it does list the B6 Bug 1600SP. What it does show is that the same 111 115 451 pressure relief valve spring was being used on all D, E, F, H1 and L series (40HP, 1300 & 1500 in both standard and low octane versions) engines prior to the 1970 model year.
So apparantly both the H5 and B5 series USA engines must be set up for that spring listed in the Bus Bentley chart? I wish I could have found more info, Progressive Refinements is no help as it ends just before the H5 and B5 series began.
Anyway, if the oil pressure was fine before, and you'r pretty sure that's still the original spring, and it passes that test, I'd just reuse it, and if the oil pressure tests to be somewhere you don't like it later on, then maybe look for a different spring.
-Andy
Last edited by glutamodo on Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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schadenfreude
Banned
Joined: August 25, 2011
Posts: 1535
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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thank you for all that data , yes
mine is stock 68 H5 block. single relief h5190512
and i think im the first to touch motor ,cept , drill type cylinder studs.
all parts are stock .
im going to use the spring that came with it. and piston end.
and thanks to for the poster that showed the engine hardware kit.
im going to get that too. |
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glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26524
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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just out of curiousity, does yours have the solid or grooved relief plunger?
One thing about those German engine case hardware kits that I don't like, is they come with flat gaskets for the relief valve caps screws. I prefer to use the original style crush seals found in the engine gasket sets instead.
The plungers that come in those kits are the solid ones. I've got one of those kits here, and here's a photo I took of the two springs and one of the plungers a while ago:
-Andy |
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schadenfreude
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Joined: August 25, 2011
Posts: 1535
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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oops, i messed up,
the 77mm spring is my machinist, offering, unknown.'
mine is 62mm with stepped piston
ok now must measure its pressure. using my deep wall socket trick.
my bentles show same value .93/17lb
id dont think mine will pass. its very weak, may be 1/2 that...but ....
i will find out
Last edited by schadenfreude on Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:01 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26524
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh okay! The edit I did on that post above was when I noticed I had said 7.75 lbs, instead of kg. That's 17.1 lbs, which is a lot of load to put on a spring. Have fun with it... that deepwall socket trick sounds like a good method. |
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schadenfreude
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Joined: August 25, 2011
Posts: 1535
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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btw, thanks for all that help !!!
ok 17lbs and at 23.6mm (.93")
ok , will do.
the good 62mm orig. spring is oily, and the wrong spring has rust.
you'd think i can keep that straight, but getting old.
they all had there own containers too. tupperware clones i use to keep parts.
my scale craps out, lithium dead.
ill goto store and use theirs, for free... |
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schadenfreude
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Joined: August 25, 2011
Posts: 1535
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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ok found a scale
the stock old spring shorty passes muster
at 17 lbs exactly at .93" (using my deep wall socket trick)
but the johnnys chrome , (10 year 1998 NOS junk some "famous"store sold me)
way longer, i press down with socket and the it has huge force.
why over 25lbs. and then im afraid ill wreck store scale, as it too shoots out.
no way does johnny get in to my motor. LOL
the johnnys piston dont fit either, too big.
conclusion the old spring, is a RUNNER. |
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glutamodo
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Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26524
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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Cool, thanks for the update.
When I built my 40HP engine that's still in my 62 many years ago, I had mistakenly grabbed the wrong spring from my parts. The engine was unlike many old old 40HPs in that it had been factory reworked for cam bearings, so it was tight on the oil system. So when I was driving this new engine around breaking it in, I quickly got the smell of oil coming out of my stale air heater... Oil was slinging past my crank pulley and getting everywhere. I had a sand-seal pulley and seal around, so I put that in ... same thing happened. Then I checked the oil pressure - it was extremely high. So I pulled the pressure relief valve and found I'd used the wrong spring. Aha! Changed it out and never had any more issues like that... eventually went back to a stock pulley too.
-Andy |
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schadenfreude
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Joined: August 25, 2011
Posts: 1535
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:58 am Post subject: |
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im so happy you didnt, damage the bearings.
my vw pro,mech, said it can push them mains and starve the rods bearings.
not only that the stock pump is already 60-80% over capacity.
so if you run a larger pump ? that can overcome the case orifice.
and will just waste power too. I'll let the racers figure all that out. LOL
i think one guy here measured pump actual pressure on a cold day
over 300psi. This can blow the external (cheap hoses off)
or split an external filter casing. I hope nobody gets these problems.
cheers, and happy holidays !  |
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glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26524
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, I used a larger pump - this was the first 40HP I'd had with cam bearings, so I was used to poor oil pressure, and I was used to using larger pumps, plus I always detail them out like discussed in the old How to Hot Rod VW Engines book. Which was more than this engine needed. I thought about putting a stock pump on there, but due another issue I never did. |
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schadenfreude
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Joined: August 25, 2011
Posts: 1535
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:07 am Post subject: |
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yes, on old motors with single relief , running thick oil on cold day
, huge oversize pump and normal clearances, you can get in to trouble.
oil pump, relief springs and cylinder studs are weak doc areas, or ive not peeled the onion deep enough.  |
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delliott101
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Joined: February 22, 2008
Posts: 1315
Location: Caldwell - Lake Lowell ID
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Got to hand it to you... I can't even get that thing OUT! The cap (where I guess you are supposed a big screwdriver) won't budge!!!
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Transplanted Jersey Boy living in Idaho by way of Northern California!
We don't own old VWs, we just take care of them for the next driver |
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glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26524
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Big screwdrivers can mess the slot in that cap up when it won't budge. You need something that fits the slot better and you can get more leverage out of... I use one of these:
Or a hardened metal ruler from a (old USA-made) combination square and a Crescent wrench:
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delliott101
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Joined: February 22, 2008
Posts: 1315
Location: Caldwell - Lake Lowell ID
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Where did you get that tool from?
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Transplanted Jersey Boy living in Idaho by way of Northern California!
We don't own old VWs, we just take care of them for the next driver |
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glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26524
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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The socket, that's a 3/4" (1/2" drive) drag link socket for old US cars. I got it at a used tool booth at an indoor flea market/antique mall. I didn't like the taper on it, so you can see I filed it down a little bit. Here's another photo of it "in action"
Proto still makes a taller version of tool as 5444A, which shouldn't need that kind of modification. If you Google that part number + Proto you'll get many matches. Other companies make them too.
Now, that strong, hardened steel ruler, that was one of a few tools that were my grandfathers originally.
-Andy |
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