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biotex
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2014
Posts: 316
Location: Alpine, TX
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 Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:45 am Post subject: how to properly shim spindle to trailing arms help needed please |
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So I purchased a new 8" wider warrior beam with coil over shock mount. I added new combo spindles (405172) with new 2.5" longer trailing arms (405148) and new link pins/bushings also to replace my stock VW arms.
I have everything bolted in place and I'm ready for the final tightening and shimming of the arms. I have the urethane front arm bushings just tight enough so the arms drop with their own weight.
I have one shim in the top link pin and then snug the nut so that again the arms drop on their own weight. Any tighter and they won't. This is not tight at all which is worrying me, but perhaps that is all that is needed?
So next, I add one shim on the bottom arm and tighten the nut hand tight while lightly tapping on the head of the pin to seat it. The shim washer is snug but not completely tight. The arm will drop freely. So I tighten the bottom nut ever so slightly and the shim get tight. No way I could insert a .001 feeler gauge in. If I tighten the nut any further, the arms won't drop on their own.
I'm using nylon lock nuts, but am worried i'm doing something wrong. I thought the link pin nuts would be torqued tighter. I'm getting the impression something is binding but this is a first for me. I have greased everything of course. As a side note, I am worried if enough grease gets into the link pins bushings before it comes out the king pin area on the spindle. I would like to see a separate zirk for each link pin.
Any help sorting this out is appreciated. I need help making sure I am setting up the shims properly. I will mention that I measure about a half a degree of negative camber with everything bolted up. Also I have tried adding up to 4 shims on the bottom just to experiment around. I can't tell a difference.
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ACME Cruiser Sand Rail, 1776, Combo spindles,
Coil Over conversion in progress |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20807
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: how to properly shim spindle to trailing arms help needed please |
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From Haynes GHIA/VW manual...
Dale
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“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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biotex
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2014
Posts: 316
Location: Alpine, TX
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: how to properly shim spindle to trailing arms help needed please |
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I saw that chart. All of my parts are aftermarket. How could that chart possibly be valid for non OEM? Not being a smartazz here. I really don't understand. Talks about replacing shims exactly as you removed them and all. I'm starting from scratch. 10 shims is just an arbitrary number the way I see it.
What I'm thinking is I need to first find the offset. Is this correct?
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ACME Cruiser Sand Rail, 1776, Combo spindles,
Coil Over conversion in progress |
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Mike E.
Samba Member
Joined: April 22, 2019
Posts: 110
Location: Torrance, California
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: how to properly shim spindle to trailing arms help needed please |
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| biotex wrote: |
I saw that chart. All of my parts are aftermarket. How could that chart possibly be valid for non OEM? Not being a smartazz here. I really don't understand. Talks about replacing shims exactly as you removed them and all. I'm starting from scratch. 10 shims is just an arbitrary number the way I see it.
What I'm thinking is I need to first find the offset. Is this correct? |
I'm certainly not well versed in this process, but as you stated, the shims are only there to take up the offset. You must find the offset first. Second the nuts on the ends of the link pins are there only as insurance as the stock link pins don't have nuts there. The nuts can also aid in finding the correct clearance for the shims. The bolt going through the trailing arm is the one that will clamp the trailing arm down and hold the link pin in place once you have the shims set properly. It sounds like you are on the right path. Make sure you have at least one (or two) shim in every spot. Take your time and have fun. I'm sure there will be more and better input on here. |
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biotex
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2014
Posts: 316
Location: Alpine, TX
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| Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:30 am Post subject: Re: how to properly shim spindle to trailing arms help needed please |
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| Mike E. wrote: |
| biotex wrote: |
I saw that chart. All of my parts are aftermarket. How could that chart possibly be valid for non OEM? Not being a smartazz here. I really don't understand. Talks about replacing shims exactly as you removed them and all. I'm starting from scratch. 10 shims is just an arbitrary number the way I see it.
What I'm thinking is I need to first find the offset. Is this correct? |
I'm certainly not well versed in this process, but as you stated, the shims are only there to take up the offset. You must find the offset first. Second the nuts on the ends of the link pins are there only as insurance as the stock link pins don't have nuts there. The nuts can also aid in finding the correct clearance for the shims. The bolt going through the trailing arm is the one that will clamp the trailing arm down and hold the link pin in place once you have the shims set properly. It sounds like you are on the right path. Make sure you have at least one (or two) shim in every spot. Take your time and have fun. I'm sure there will be more and better input on here. |
Thank you Mike for the support. I have been reading up on this as much as time permits. I have seen that these shims are not used to adjust camber, and i get that. I have tried to find this mysterious offset magical number, but before I perform the final assembly and use up my nylon lock nuts, i'd like to be sure about it. You say to be sure and use at least two shims in each of the 4 positions correct? What is the purpose of more than one on the outboard positions B & D? I don;t see that any measurement would be affected.
Edit: Now that I have been thinking about this so much I have to ask. With aftermarket trailing arms and combo spindles as I am running, why do we need any offset? I seem to have zero offset by design. I can understand if there was an imperfection in the parts and you had some offset, it would need to be addressed. But what is the purpose of it to begin with? If camber is built into the spindle, it can't be for that...
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ACME Cruiser Sand Rail, 1776, Combo spindles,
Coil Over conversion in progress |
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jsturtlebuggy
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Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4599
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:12 am Post subject: Re: how to properly shim spindle to trailing arms help needed please |
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The lock nut on the end of the link pins is not there to keep the link pin from moving in the arm. That what the pinch bolt does.
First thing you need to do is measure the off set between the upper and lower arms.
Then you use the shim chart to determine how many shims you need to fit between arm and stock link pin carrier or the king pin if using Combo Spindles.
Yes you install all the link pin shims like it says in the chart.
This is for each link pin to same length where it rides in trailing arm for pinch bolt.
After you have done this, then install the link pins and combo spindles to trailing arms. Then install the pinch bolts and nuts, Just take up the slack in the bolts.
Next step is to tighten up the large nut on the ends of the link pins. Back them off so that suspension can move up and down freely.
Tighten pinch bolts and then snug up the link pin nut so it touching the trailing arm, Don't wrench them down, The pinch bolt hold the link pin in place.
If you do not have any offset between upper and lower arms, be aware that you may a Chinese arms. Woods and Foddrill arms have the offset.
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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biotex
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2014
Posts: 316
Location: Alpine, TX
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| Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:52 am Post subject: Re: how to properly shim spindle to trailing arms help needed please |
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| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
The lock nut on the end of the link pins is not there to keep the link pin from moving in the arm. That what the pinch bolt does.
First thing you need to do is measure the off set between the upper and lower arms.
Then you use the shim chart to determine how many shims you need to fit between arm and stock link pin carrier or the king pin if using Combo Spindles.
Yes you install all the link pin shims like it says in the chart.
This is for each link pin to same length where it rides in trailing arm for pinch bolt.
After you have done this, then install the link pins and combo spindles to trailing arms. Then install the pinch bolts and nuts, Just take up the slack in the bolts.
Next step is to tighten up the large nut on the ends of the link pins. Back them off so that suspension can move up and down freely.
Tighten pinch bolts and then snug up the link pin nut so it touching the trailing arm, Don't wrench them down, The pinch bolt hold the link pin in place.
If you do not have any offset between upper and lower arms, be aware that you may a Chinese arms. Woods and Foddrill arms have the offset. |
Thanks. It is all starting to come together now. One thing about that chart that puzzled me was why the need for the outboard most shims. I have now realized it is the same engineering as for the fan belt tightening. It is simply a place to store the extras shims. DUH! They do no good as far as changing any offsets...
I have learned how to measure offset now also. Take off the combo spindle and level the trailing arms. Put a straight edge on both surfaces and see if they are equal length or is there an offset. Makes perfect sense now.
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ACME Cruiser Sand Rail, 1776, Combo spindles,
Coil Over conversion in progress |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5820
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:16 am Post subject: Re: how to properly shim spindle to trailing arms help needed please |
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The offset is there by design. It SHOULD be there. The lower arm should be farther out than the upper arm.
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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