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spinman
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2007
Posts: 69
Location: Asheville, NC
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 Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:40 am Post subject: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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So when I pull the turn signal lever to turn on the high beams the relay clicks and the high beams and indicator come on as long as I have the lever pulled. As soon as I release the lever the lights revert back to the low beams. This happens every time.
I have taken the dimmer relay out and bench tested it and it works like it should toggling back and forth between the 56a and 56b terminals when I ground the S terminal.
Any thoughts on this? Is it not getting a good enough ground in the circuit to completely cause the relay to switch between high/low beams? It seems like if the switch was bad the high beams wouldn't come on at all.....??? |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51171
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:53 am Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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Hmmmm..., odd. The only thing I can come up with is the relay somehow flexes slightly when plugged into the fuse box and it prevents the toggle from latching. 
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spinman
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2007
Posts: 69
Location: Asheville, NC
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:10 am Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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| Just tried wiggling the relay, squeezing it, etc. while trying the high beam switch. Same result every time. Maybe the relay is just on the brink of completely going bad? Thinking of starting with a new relay and going from there..... |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:28 am Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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if the high beams flash when the lights are off then the system has been modified and a different relay part number is involved.
if the lights are on when this happens then the relay is bad. Replace it with a new one.
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51171
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:29 am Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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Carefully pry it open and watch it work, sometimes one of the tabs putting tension on a spring in there needs a tiny tweak to make it stay latched. What's the worse that can happen?, if you fix it bonus, if you make it worse you were going to buy another one anyways, not much to lose.
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kreemoweet
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Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3900
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:50 am Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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Seems to me, that since he bench tested the relay, and it worked correctly, the problem is not in the relay. I would be looking at the switch mechanism in the T/S switch. Or the wiring connected to the relay.
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:56 am Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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the relay is a stepping relay. It steps every time it gets a ground on the signal pin. The only way the switch could be involved is if it is sending a double signal - meaning ground when pulled and ground when released. It would be easy to test with a jumper to manually send a ground signal to step the relay.
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51171
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:32 am Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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If that was the case the beams would switch every time you turned on the head lights, and the relay would get hot too.
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:36 am Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| If that was the case the beams would switch every time you turned on the head lights, and the relay would get hot too. |
Correct me if I am wrong please but in my recollection of the wiring - the relay winding isn't grounded except when the stalk lever is pulled.
On a standard bus system, my understanding is the 12V signal to the relay is present when the main headlight switch is on. There is a ground signal pin that the steering column switch sends when it is pulled. That steps the relay each time it is grounded. When it steps it changes which set of internal relay points are connected so that the 12V signal coming into the relay is sent to high or low beams. The relay winding is only energized when the stalk is pulled and grounded. The headlights, high or low are always grounded on one side of the filament, and when 12V power is applied to the other they come on.
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Last edited by SGKent on Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:46 am; edited 9 times in total |
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spinman
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2007
Posts: 69
Location: Asheville, NC
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:39 am Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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| Took the relay apart and watched it work on the bench....seems to work just fine when not in the car. This was working previously, so I don't think it is an issue of the relay not being wired correctly. Thinking now it may be a ground issue in the T/S mechanism...... |
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spinman
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2007
Posts: 69
Location: Asheville, NC
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:40 am Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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| Thinking I will still replace the relay first just to take that out of the equation, but it seems to be operating fine |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:58 am Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| If that was the case the beams would switch every time you turned on the head lights, and the relay would get hot too. |
Correct me if I am wrong please but in my recollection of the wiring - the relay winding isn't grounded except when the stalk lever is pulled.
On a standard bus system, my understanding is the 12V signal to the relay is present when the main headlight switch is on. There is a ground signal pin that the steering column switch sends when it is pulled. That steps the relay each time it is grounded. When it steps it changes which set of internal relay points are connected so that the 12V signal coming into the relay is sent to high or low beams. The relay winding is only energized when the stalk is pulled and grounded. The headlights, high or low are always grounded on one side of the filament, and when 12V power is applied to the other they come on. |
I snagged this from a 1977 wiring. The OP doesn't list his year bus which he really should in his avatar or sig line.
J (blue purple arrow) is the Headlight dimmer relay
E4 (red arrow) is the Headlight dimmer switch on the column
L1 & L2 are the headlights
K is high beam indicator
#56 is power in from the main headlight switch
the brown wires go to the bottom line which is chassis ground
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Last edited by SGKent on Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ceckert64
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Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1966
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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I had the exact same issue with my Type 3, I’d pull the high beam lever back, they high beams came on but when I let go, they’d go off. It was the relay, it’s happened twice. The first time, I’d pull the relay out and it would be hanging by the wires upside down, it would work fine, then put it with the connections pointing down and it would start doing it again. It did the same thing again and if I hold the lever back, it’s fine. Even though it doesn’t seem like the relay, my money is on the relay as the same thing happened to me and it’s been the relay because the spare relay I put in was used.
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51171
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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The switch on the column either works or it doesn't, since there's a click from the relay when you pull the switch the switch is working.
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| The switch on the column either works or it doesn't, since there's a click from the relay when you pull the switch the switch is working. |
I had the one fail in my 1971 going to Road Atlanta for the SCCA finals in 1978 while I was on US 80 near Demopolis AL. US Highway 80 (not to be confused with I-80) at that time was an old concrete highway of 2 lanes thru Alabama running from San Diego CA to Savannah GA. The 18 wheelers would drop their right side off onto the shoulder when they passed you because the highway wasn't wide enough for them and you. When it failed, and I have no idea how it did it, it caused one low beam to blow a fuse. I pulled over into a large turn out, put in spare fuses and both blew. Cycling it again a copper part fell out onto the floor and the passenger side started working again without blowing a fuse but the drivers side would not - it still took out fuses. I drove all night hoping that trucks would not think I was a motorcycle riding to the right. I think I turned the interior lights on when trucks approached. The next day I bought new fuses to replace my depleted supply, and a new turn / high beam switch at the VW dealer in a small town near the Georgia border, installed it in a McDonalds parking lot, and that solved the issue. I have no idea why that part would cause fuses downstream from it to blow but I do remember that night well (and the PITA to replace the switch. Something tells me I unsoldered the wires at the part, and soldered the new switch on rather than pull all the wires thru the column. Although it is gone now, there was an old steel girder one lane bridge at Demopolis from the 1920's across the Tombigbee River about there that you had to stop at one end of the river bridge and wait for the light to turn so you were the only one on the bridge. It was replaced a couple years later and now there is only a historical marker. It was called the "Rooster Bridge" because roosters were donated by famous people and then auctioned off to finance it.
1920's photo of it. It still looked this way in October 1978 when I crossed it in a '"one-eyed" VW bus with a bad high low dimmer switch. Hard to think that US highways in the 1970's were still this antiquated. I remember 2 lane sections of old Route 66 and I-40.
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spinman
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Joined: July 24, 2007
Posts: 69
Location: Asheville, NC
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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Thanks for the input everyone
I really appreciate it. Going to start with a new relay and go from there. Thanks again!!!! |
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ToolBox
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004
Posts: 3439
Location: Detroit, where they don't jack parts off my ride in the parking lot of the 7-11
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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| spinman wrote: |
Thanks for the input everyone
I really appreciate it. Going to start with a new relay and go from there. Thanks again!!!! |
The new relays sold might need some rewiring as they are Euro Spec and had different requirements. Might want to check that your current relay is not a replacement that is not wired correctly. |
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spinman
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2007
Posts: 69
Location: Asheville, NC
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:12 am Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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| Well....back ordered relay finally showed up and it doesn't work at all out of the box. Replacement for the replacement is in the mail.... |
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kreemoweet
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Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3900
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:31 am Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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| spinman wrote: |
| Well....back ordered relay finally showed up and it doesn't work at all out of the box. Replacement for the replacement is in the mail.... |
Does that mean it doesn't work even on the bench? If it does, that would be pretty much proof positive that the
problem is not with your relays, but elsewhere.
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spinman
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2007
Posts: 69
Location: Asheville, NC
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:20 am Post subject: Re: High Beams Don't Stay On |
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| Wasn't working on the bench either. I took it apart and the little arm that makes the high/low beams toggle has a bend/crease in it causing it not to switch correctly. Tried bending it into the correct position but it doesn't want to work with me just manually trying to get it to toggle without electricity.... |
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