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Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find
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NurseryWalt
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:39 pm    Post subject: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

Here is what the car looked like on Monday, October 5, 2020. Saw it the day before while driving by in our '66 Bug. I was astonished to find a 412, 4-door with exactly the same color as the one our family owned in 1972. Offered $2000 Canadian ($1500 US) on the spot.
From the front - a few cracks in the dashboard and extra bumpers in the back seat.
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From the back - a bit of rust on the engine compartment.
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Passenger side - some trim missing and a slight dent behind the back wheel.
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Front right headlight has an ouchie. Bumper looks a bit corroded.
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Hopefully this is worth restoring.
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NurseryWalt
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

Taking delivery of the car on Saturday, October 10, 2020. The car moved from Abbotsford to Chilliwack, BC to hopefully start a full restoration.

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Let the fun begin!
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Lars S
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:14 am    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

Welcome and Nice find!!
Engine dust is minimal..looks to have been sitting not too long...have you inspected the floorpans?


/Lars S
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NurseryWalt
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

Hello Lars,
The Barn salvager that I bought it from said it sat in a barn in BC, Canada for 8 years. The last 8 months or so, it has been outside. In another post, the front trunk has some rust. In the next week I will be pulling up the carpet and tar boards to inspect the floor pans. From underneath, the little bit that I saw, it looks pretty good. Thanks to this forum I feel I can undertake this new project.
Walter
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Hawker
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

Hello Walter,

Welcome!

The 4 door type 4ís are fantastic cars to drive. You have found a great project and you will certainly enjoy driving it when completed.

BR,

Rob
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ubercrap
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

What's promising to me is that there is an engine compartment seal in there (along with the original fuel injection). I've seen even mint looking cars for sale that are supposedly fully gone through where it's missing. Somebody sometime in the recent to medium past had it that knew what they were doing and hopefully didn't bodge it up.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

ubercrap wrote:
What's promising to me is that there is an engine compartment seal in there (along with the original fuel injection). I've seen even mint looking cars for sale that are supposedly fully gone through where it's missing. Somebody sometime in the recent to medium past had it that knew what they were doing and hopefully didn't bodge it up.


Looks like a good start! Pretty complete....not much damage.

The rear engine lid is going to be a challenge. That is not surface rust. All of the lids do this. Its rusted from the inside out.

The problem is that water ...and leaves and debris....comes in through the intake louvers. The lid is designed as kind of an "S" duct to shed water from the intake air so it does not all blow through the engine. It actually works quite well in that respect.

But the water drains out through two little rubber drains in each lower corner of the lid. When those drains get plugged with crud...you never know it. The leaves (thats usually what it is)......and sometimes there was foam inside....stay wet up against the metal causing large area rust.

I have two lids. The one on my car has virtually identical rust as yours. The other one...has one small rust through. I cut a window through the inside layer of that one to inspect the extent. I will have to solder/braise or weld that window piece of metal back in.

The other one...I have been thinking for years of ways to attack that.

1. The most extreme....is to seperate the outer sheet metal from teh inner piece around the edges on the inside.....de-rust everything....treat and seal everything....then carefullly remove the rusted metal from the outside layer....with acid only. No grinding away of metal. Then use either body solder or a fine layer of filler backed by fiberglass or metal....to make a clean surface that can be sanded from teh outside....then tack weld the inner shell back in and fill the groove and paint.

2. Leave it together but use the window on the inside method I already have going to make sure I can FULLY clean and seal....and probably use something like master series inside maybe coated with Glyptal paint so it will never rust or clog up again....then solder or tack weld the window back in and paint.

3. Have the whole thing acid washed to DISSOLVE all rust....dip it in Ospho...let dry...then solder or fill the outside so its smooth....then ....inject master series inside and slosh it around like a gas tank to coat the inside....let dry........paint. This method has the least surety because you have no access to the inside.

Ray
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NurseryWalt
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:32 am    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

Took a bit of a break to organize the truck bay and build some shelves. Boring, but important.
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Removed the headlights and front turn signals. Wondering how to fix that left corner. Get a donor corner from another car?
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Removed the windshield washer reservoir. That really felt pristine!
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Figured out how to remove the front seats...no tools necessary.
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Driver's seat in sad shape.
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The goal of the day to look under the battery. Not too bad.
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Bonus of the day, found a set of keys next to the battery. Hopefully they will fit one of the ignitions and possibly the glovebox.
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Now I need to figure out how to remove the carpet around the fuse box so that I can inspect the floor boards.
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Abelclasico
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

that's a nice find and, from the looks of it, very restorable.
The rear corner that you mention, I would try to cut out the damaged area and patch it with maybe a couple of pieces,
cheers,
Abel
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

OK!

The front and rear fenders come off. Find another and keep that one to work with.

The key pattern is the correct "type"....and the VW key "should" fit the glove box. Keep both for now.

The correct key should fit both front doors and the ignition. If that key doe not fit the doors but fits the ignition.....you can have the door locks -re-tumblered. You can have the ignition re-tumblered if it fits the door locks but not the ignition.

The key code number is stamped on the outside of the door handle lock after you remove it with the single screw under the plastic cap inside the door face.

If that key fits neither the door or the ignition...pull the drivers door handle and record teh number. Check the passenger door handle to see if its the same. You can get a key made and its a high chance its the same for the ignition.

If you need help with what keys and where to get parts I have a lot of info I can direct you to....like this

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8954266&highlight=#8954266

Ray
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NurseryWalt
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

It's the small things that can make my day. Both keys work! What a pleasant surprise. Thanks Ray for all the info regarding rekeying. Valuable information.

Abel, I was impressed with how you joined 5 pieces of metal to repair the back corner of your wagon. If I can't find a fender, I'll try to be creative as well.

Thanks for all the help.

Cheers,
Walter
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

Walter,

Make sure you check your front inner fender wells. I thought I had a fairly rust free car. This is the cancer I found after removing the fronts.
Bill
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

All right!

This is timely!

Understand that in these inner fender well areas....you REALLY should not do any welding that you dont absolutely have to....unless you are a master welder with a really good rig or are TIG welding.

There are places that I would NOT weld no matter how good you are. If its not structural and cannot be seen from the outside or inside...and the rust can be neutralized and sealed....PERMANENTLY ...do that instead.

The metal on these inner fenders is only 0.030" thick.

Some tips.....First...use a knotted wire wheel on an angle grinder...ONLY...do not use sanding discs except to remove thick undercoating. Do not use sanding discs on rust. There is not enough metal here even when not rusted.

Remove all crusty rust and the undercoating back to clean metal leaving burnished putted rust areas.


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Where the yellow lines are.....you WILL find rust through pin holes when you put a light inside the trunk .....DO NOT be tempted to weld these up. You will largely be unsuccessful and make it worse.

Where the red dot areas are in the crusty rusty patches...just wire wheel them down smooth with rusty pits as I described above.

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The piece in the red oval...is structural but mainly part of the crumple zone system from what I can tell. Clean and trim away all rusted, paper thin metal...and tack in a plate...keep it simple. That structural box had drains in the top and bottom. They get plugged and it rusts. I will post pictures of the drains.

The yellow oval...there will always be pinholes through to the trunk....because these areas gathered water. DO NOT WELD HERE.

This corner area was BRAISED...not welded. The factory could not weld it either.

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Another view. Just trim this straight and tack in a plate and seal it. More on this later. The yellow hole....DO NOT weld these. WE will get to the patching later.

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The rear fender seal line may have pinholes. Do not worry about them. Again...wire wheel and get rid of the crusty rust.

The corner at the bottom is a water trap. It will always have rust troughs from both inside and outside if you had a leaky windshield gasket. DO NOT Weld this. I did one...and its not worth it. We will just clean away rust and neutralize it and seal it.

And...that side box structural member....which is mainly for the crumple zone to make it crumple in the right spots first...and not so much for front end strength....is open at the front, has a drain into it from the top...and a single drain at the rear and the side holes were taped shut and undercoated.... stupid. Rolling Eyes

So.....the undercoating in the wheel wells in STUPID thick in some spots. You ONLY need to grind away the undercoating that has CRACKS in it that go all the way to metal.
This stuff is 45 years old ...and the same inside as the day it was born. Tough as nails. If its not cracked from age or flexing....leave it. Its clean metal underneath...so I found after I spent a whole 3 days grinding all of it off under the drivers side fender...mostly needlessly. Its bulletproof.

So...aside from anything that must be welded....how to clean this up and seal it PERMANENTLY? .....

1. get it down to rusted pitted metal with a "knotted" wire wheel...because it removes very little metal

2. Neutralize it with Ospho. This STOPS all of the now thin rust.

3. Then...paint it with two coats of "Master Series" silver rust killer.
THIS STUFF IS BAD-ASS. Repeat...This stuff is bad-ass!

The Master series is a MOISTURE CURING polyurethane....with 35% aluminum powder in it. Its VERY thick.

The moisture curing part means that its attacks rust...in the pits....and absorbs all moisture as part of its curing cycle. It has Naptha and toluene in it...it absorbs oxygen as well. And the aluminum is an astringent...removes moisture...and creates killer film strength and cross linking.

As the literature notes....for the rust through pits.....tape up the inside....and apply it straight with a foam brush or Q-tip as the first coat in just these spots. It magically filled....rust holes up to about 1/16" on the first pass....no shit! Shocked

For several no-structural spots with 1.5" rust holes (I will post it tomorrow)...I painted on a little master series....then dipped a strip of fiberglass in it...Laid it over the top....let it dry. It will get 2 more coats and never rust again and be sealed up solid.

You could probably do that to that structural box with rust throughs. There is another one underneath forward of the fuel tank that always rusts the same way. Poorly sealed.

So just this afternoon......

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This is the drivers side. Its has a constellation of pinholes wherever you see the red circles. It has about 85% of the undercoating stripped off. I did all of it with a knotted wire wheel in about 2.5 hours. I purposely let it surface rust and then hit it with Ospho.

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This is the drivers side. 95% stripped....needlessly....and its been stripped for 2 years. Surface rust...and got soaked with Ospho today. I will show pics tomorrow after the rust was converted.

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This was after the first coat of Master series. It took me less than 1 hour with a foam brush. It FILLED...all the pinholes. It gest a second coat tomorrow...and the other side gets one...maybe both. You need to wait 3-4 hours for second coat....and no more than 7 days..or you have to sand it like any other urethane.

This first coat...I added 5% by weight thinner. Perfect in my opinion. It took about a little less than one quarter of a quart....so each double layer under each fender should take a little less than a half quart.

Then...I am spraying on factory (nearly identical)...rigid undercoating. You can buy it by the can at NAPA. Its made by Wurth...who made the factory undercoating. Very close....white or beige, black or brown.

Ray
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NurseryWalt
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

Thank you Bill and Ray. I'm not that far yet, but eventually I will peek under the fenders and I am mentally prepared for the worst. But you take the good with the bad, and so far I'm pretty happy with my Barn Find.

I'll be referencing these pictures for future use.

Walter
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

NurseryWalt wrote:
Thank you Bill and Ray. I'm not that far yet, but eventually I will peek under the fenders and I am mentally prepared for the worst. But you take the good with the bad, and so far I'm pretty happy with my Barn Find.

I'll be referencing these pictures for future use.

Walter


I will be posting these and more in my build thread today.

Ray
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ubercrap
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

You might be interested in this!:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2302868

Even though I kind of want it too, the car that needs it (the one in my avatar Wink )is not one of the two I'm working on now. Cool
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Hawker
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

Hello Walter,

What Ray has written for you, is spot on!

On my first 411LE the inner wings were in holes, my second, I caught it just in time. I removed the factory plastic coating applied to the front inner wings and repainted them using modern stone chip, primers and paints. The problem is, the rust starts at the bottom of the panel or anywhere the coating is cracked, damaged or missing. Water then finds its way behind the coating and corrodes its way along the panel. The second issue is that the inner wing metal is so damn thin, so there isnít much material to corrode before itís in holes.

Best of luck! It looks like you have found a car to restore, just in time.

BR,

Rob
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

Thanks so much Ray for showing us the right way to do these things.
I am sorry for hijacking the thread but I began working on that specific area and decided to stop as I might need to patch some areas. However, after reading what Ray suggested, I will need to reconsider.

What I did was: wire brush, neutralize and prime.
I will try to get the Master Series product for better results,
cheers,
Abel


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

Thank you Ray for using my car as pictorial. This will be a slow process on my part because I have my SO 42 and Super projects going on at the same time. The ďMaster SeriesĒ product you are talking about is an Eastwood product? I am no paint or body man but with your help I can probably correct alot of this on my own. You are certainly an inspiration to the 411/412 community! You know they say Wagons are out. I say letís make Wagons cool again...thatís where Iím going.
Bill
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find Reply with quote

[quote="Abelclasico"]Thanks so much Ray for showing us the right way to do these things.
I am sorry for hijacking the thread but I began working on that specific area and decided to stop as I might need to patch some areas. However, after reading what Ray suggested, I will need to reconsider.

What I did was: wire brush, neutralize and prime.
I will try to get the Master Series product for better results,
cheers,
Abel


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/quote]

OK...before it hardens up.....strip that prier back off with acetone and or wire wheel.

I know you will hate this...but primer is not your friend in these areas. Its porous and has no rust killing ability.

Get it back to rusty metal. Go to Home depot...Lowes...Ace Hardware.. ..Amazon...wherever you can find this:

Ospho....

https://www.amazon.com/SKYBRYTE-Skyco-Ospho-Surfac...&psc=1

Read the directions. If it says for "rust removal" use straight and use for "rust treatment"...dilute it....then dilute it.

Just get a spritzer bottle and a rag and some gloves. Soak everything...let dry for 24 hours. Do not rinse it off.

The rust has now been neutralized. If you keep it tarped for a little while you can wait to paint it for a week or two or even a month or two.

Order some of this:
http://masterseriesct.com/

Master Series Permanent rust sealer. Only comes in silver. Its abut $35 a quart. You do do both fender wells like in my picture.....and probably a second coat with one quart. Go ahead and order a quart of thinner as well...even though you will only use about 5% maximum.

I have opted ...because mine went on so thick with foam brushes...to not put a complete second coat on. I went back today and covered maybe 20% of it again ..anywhere there were pits or brush marks or thin spots. It will get sprayed with undercoating hopefully tomorrow.

This stuff will keep it from rusting again in your lifetime. Ray
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